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Discussion of diving methods and equipment available prior to the development of BCDs beyond the horse collar. This forum is dedicated to the pre-1970 diving.
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antique diver
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Re: Need HW Gold Label schematic

Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:39 am

ScubaLawyer wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:13 am
Bill, sorta sounds like the only time I'd need the restrictor installed is if I wasn't using a submersible pressure guage AND I wasn't using a j-valve for my reserve? If that's the case then i see no reason to install the restrictor (and probably the reason someone took it out to begin with). Thoughts?

I may charge for my time but no one seems to ever getting around to paying my bill so I basically work my butt off for free. :D
I think you should dive it both ways to get the feel of the original before deciding on how you want to use the reg. You will have a reminder of what it was like diving the old regs, and it's easy to make the changeover.

See Herman's advice for additional information about drilling out the restrictor. I agree, but would only do that if I had an extra original on hand to make a truer restoration of the HW if desired.

About my comment on charging for time... That's what we all do in our respective professions. I respect your education, knowledge and your profession... it's just fun to pick on lawyers for some reason.
The older I get the better I was.

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ScubaLawyer
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Re: Need HW Gold Label schematic

Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:15 am

Herman & BT, all great advice. Appreciate the discussions. So as I understand it, the HW, like a Mistral, becomes easier to breathe as tank psi decreases due to its upstream design. However, with the restrictor in place, at some low tank pressure the HW gets harder to breath as a warning to ascend. Any idea what that psi is? The reason I ask is that I usually fine tune a Mistral at 300 to 500 psi so it wont freeflow at the end of a dive. With the restrictor in place it seems like one should adjust the reg for optimum performance at whatever the psi is just above the level the restrictor is designed to increase inhalation effort. Maybe its a non-issue but its this kind of world problem that keeps me up at night. :D
"The diver who collects specimens of underwater life has fun and becomes a keen underwater observer. .. seek slow-moving or attached organisms such as corals, starfish, or shelled creatures." (Golden Guide to Scuba Diving, 1968) :D

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antique diver
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Re: Need HW Gold Label schematic

Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:56 am

Concerning your question about the pressure at which the restrictor makes a noticeable change in breathing, the restriction acts a little differently than a normal reserve valve, making that a complicated answer. The pressure at which you would notice an increase in breathing effort becomes both a function of the tank pressure and the depth. The small fixed orifice exacerbates the factor of varying air density with depth changes.

So in theory the deeper you are the higher the tank pressure will be when increase in inhalation effort is noticed. As you begin to ascend the decrease in density will lessen effort... but if you go deeper at that time there will be increase in effort. Very effective hint to come up. Actually a good idea when diving without a pressure gauge.

You might have some fun experimenting with that and reporting your findings. It's been a very-very long time since I dove with an old Scuba Star with that restrictor in place... maybe 50 years!
The older I get the better I was.

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ScubaLawyer
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Re: Need HW Gold Label schematic

Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:26 pm

Thanks Bill, of course I was hoping for a simple "oh yea, adjust your reg at 500 psi" :D but everything you say makes sense and i will play with adjustments accordingly. Amazing what I learn from you guys....
"The diver who collects specimens of underwater life has fun and becomes a keen underwater observer. .. seek slow-moving or attached organisms such as corals, starfish, or shelled creatures." (Golden Guide to Scuba Diving, 1968) :D

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antique diver
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Re: Need HW Gold Label schematic

Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:59 pm

ScubaLawyer wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:26 pm
Thanks Bill, of course I was hoping for a simple "oh yea, adjust your reg at 500 psi" :D but everything you say makes sense and i will play with adjustments accordingly. Amazing what I learn from you guys....
Actually there is a simpler answer to your original question... I just got carried away there with more than you were asking.
How you have been successfully setting your Mistral should be fine for the HW. I think that 300-500 should be a good starting point. My only actual experience at tuning the HW was probably in the late 70's, so I am no authority on that subject. All that other stuff in my previous post was more about the sustained breathing effort instead of cracking effort in an attempt to clarify what to expect when diving the HW with restrictor in place.

BTW, I just found, and will be sending, a much thicker filter that will likely be much stronger and less susceptible to the bending that Herman mentioned could happen with no restrictor in place. Also will provide a little more spring tension that would be lost without the restrictor. (I'm getting tired of typing that word... let's come up with a three letter abbreviation)
The older I get the better I was.

Vancetp
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Re: Need HW Gold Label schematic

Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:14 pm

There are 2 types of restrictor plates in the Healthways regulators: one is stamped sheet metal and the other is a machined part. One was for use with a K valve and the other with a J valve. (I believe the stamped one was the K version). That would lead to the assumption that while the one for J valves was an inhibitor that caused difficulty breathing at low tank pressure, the other was not intended to restrict air flow.

This suggests to me that HW intended a spring seat to be used in their valves whether or not you wanted a built in "reserve". Although the machined plate appears to be thicker, the way they are machined appears to allow the spring to install essentially at the same compression regardless of which plate is used. I BELIEVE the plates could to be swapped without changing to a different spring.

Image
DSCF2216 by Vancetp, on Flickr

The o-ring went on top of the sheet metal version, and fit in the machined groove on the other one. The depression served as a spring seat for one end of the spring.

ImageDSCF2197 (640x480) by Vancetp, on Flickr

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ScubaLawyer
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Re: Need HW Gold Label schematic

Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:18 pm

Vancetp wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:14 pm
There are 2 types of restrictor plates in the Healthways regulators: one is stamped sheet metal and the other is a machined part. One was for use with a K valve and the other with a J valve. (I believe the stamped one was the K version). That would lead to the assumption that while the one for J valves was an inhibitor that caused difficulty breathing at low tank pressure, the other was not intended to restrict air flow.

This suggests to me that HW intended a spring seat to be used in their valves whether or not you wanted a built in "reserve". Although the machined plate appears to be thicker, the way they are machined appears to allow the spring to install essentially at the same compression regardless of which plate is used. I BELIEVE the plates could to be swapped without changing to a different spring.
That is interesting. Mine is like the stamped sheet metal in your top photo but has a very tiny (less than 1/32") hole in the center. The one in your photo is huge by comparison. The way I see it (and believe me my logic has been flawed before), if the idea of the restrictor is to make it harder to breathe at low tank pressures, then you would need it on a K-Valve (since the J-valve is already designed to increase breathing resistance at low tank pressures). The HW diagram lists the part as a "K-restrictor" as well. If I'm missing something I sure don't see it. Happy to be proved wrong. :D Mark
"The diver who collects specimens of underwater life has fun and becomes a keen underwater observer. .. seek slow-moving or attached organisms such as corals, starfish, or shelled creatures." (Golden Guide to Scuba Diving, 1968) :D

Vancetp
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Re: Need HW Gold Label schematic

Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:42 pm

Yes, sorry. My mistake: the part you underscored is backwards. The restricted orifice is for use with a K valve. A J valve accomplishes the same thing as the restricted plate. Having both would probably not be good.

It is completely possible that the stamped plate and the machined plate were used for both J and K valves. In other words, the hole in either type may be large or small.

I lean toward the notion that they used a machined plate first, then went to stamped for cost cutting. This is pure speculation. I have no idea if the machined one is from the earliest Scubas and no Deluxe or GL ever had one, or if you might have found one in any model depending on what box the assembler dipped into. As you know, manufacturers used what they had on hand, and over the years things get mixed in repair or service (or modified).

I also have seen stamped plates with tiny orifices, now that I think about it. Who knows? Someone might have drilled the one in the picture. In any case, my point is that I think Healthways intended for the plate to be in there. It holds the spring in alignment and acts as a seat for it. I'd always use a plate and o-ring in my valves. If I had a restricted plate, and didn't want the restriction, I'd drill it and reinstall it.

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ScubaLawyer
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Re: Need HW Gold Label schematic

Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:08 pm

Vance,

That makes sense. For what it's worth I've had a number of folks tell me that it was common to drill out the hole on the sheet metal restrictor when used with J-valves. If someone saw it posted on the internet and the person who posted it heard it from their brother's college roommate's ex-girlfriend's niece's mailman - it must be true. 8) Mark
"The diver who collects specimens of underwater life has fun and becomes a keen underwater observer. .. seek slow-moving or attached organisms such as corals, starfish, or shelled creatures." (Golden Guide to Scuba Diving, 1968) :D

Vancetp
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Re: Need HW Gold Label schematic

Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:05 pm

True, that. There's so many reasons why that part ended up in that regulator.

On the same kind of bent, I have noticed some things about HW double hose regs that I have never seen discussed anywhere, and it is another case of which regs had which parts and when. I'd really like to know about this.

The valve bodies in some HW regs are different from others. I don't know if this was an early/late thing or what. I noticed this after rebuilding 8-10 Scubas (I have also rebuilt half a dozen Deluxes and another half a dozen GLs).

I put a nylon seat in a valve with a normal spring, restrictor, o-ring, etc., and the lever action was very limp, like the spring was too short. It turned out that the nylon seat wasn't right, although it is definitely an HW part. I replaced it with another, using the same spring, plate, o-ring, etc., and everything was fine. WTF?

It turns out that there are 2 Scuba valve bodies: one is longer than the other, and they have different threads. They also have a different sheet metal yoke spacer. I don't know if this is true of the Deluxe or the GL, because I never noticed one that was different from another like I have with Scubas, so it might be that I just didn't see it, or that this is only a Scuba thing....

Notice the different length and different threads:
ImageDSCF2468 by Vancetp, on Flickr

Note the different spacer heights:
ImageDSCF2411 by Vancetp, on Flickr

3 different nylon plungers. One has a spring seat which accommodates the extra length of the long valve (the middle, I think):
ImageDSCF2019 by Vancetp, on Flickr

Why is this relevant? Because you can't assume that any HW HP part functions properly with any other part. The internals have to match the valve body. You can certainly swap the entire valve from one to another. Check this out:
ImageDSCF3029 by Vancetp, on Flickr

But be careful mixing HP parts! It might not be a problem for most people, but mismatches can happen!

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ScubaLawyer
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Re: Need HW Gold Label schematic

Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:18 pm

The only HW I've rebuilt is the one Gold Label so I can't be much help. I'm sure someone on here has an answer to your questions.
"The diver who collects specimens of underwater life has fun and becomes a keen underwater observer. .. seek slow-moving or attached organisms such as corals, starfish, or shelled creatures." (Golden Guide to Scuba Diving, 1968) :D

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