User avatar
Bronze06
Master Diver
Posts: 663
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2014 5:33 am
First Name: Russell
Location: Tabuk, Saudi Arabia

Titan II and Trieste regulator questions?

Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:55 am

Hey folks, not sure if this is the right place or not.

I am wondering if you can use a USD balance chamber in a Titan 1st stage or Trieste DH reg. The body blocks are identical and I know that Robo has created Titan DH regs using a HPR 2nd to replace the blow out "seat" housing in the Titan with an HPR 2nd. Also, does anyone know the Durometer needed for the o-ring on the first stage. Will a Duro 70 work. My Trieste works great, but on the Titan I either have a leak on the o-ring for the 1st stage nozzle to body on the Titan or the balance chamber is not functioning correctly. I have placed a "new" HP seat from VDH on it and I am still getting massive over-pressure. The hard seat orifice appears in great condition. What am I doing wrong here. The HPR 2nd will crack at an over-pressure of 160 which is great, but I am still getting issues from the 1st stage. Is it a HP seat spring issue, a 1st stage to body seal issue, or a balance chamber issue. I need your ideas on this one. :!: And yes, I am converting the Titan to a DH "Frankenreg" using Robs cans.
"Where'd ya get that ol' thang, don't cha' know them thare things ill kill ya!"

Live From the Red Sea,

Russ

User avatar
antique diver
Master Diver
Posts: 1881
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:50 pm
First Name: Bill
Location: North-Central Texas

Re: Titan II and Trieste regulator questions?

Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:47 am

Sounds like your poppet pin may be too long for use with the new AquaLung poppet (HP seat). I cut mine to the length suggested by Greg Barlow: 0.630 inches. He also suggests measuring the overall length of the poppet with pin inserted should fall between 0.772 to 0.780" for proper operation. If it is longer, the first stage diaphragm may push the poppet open at normal pressures. If it is too short you may not get enough opening of the poppet during use.

If you have already cut your pin to the proper length, the leak may be around the little 006 oring in your first stage balance chamber (referred to as a poppet retainer in some Voit diagrams), or the larger oring around the first stage housing. 70 durometer is normal. If you changed the small oring it could have been damaged wrestling it into the balance chamber.

About the HPR second stage... I was under the impression that there was a slight thread mismatch between the Aqualung and Voit threads.
If so, that could let the second stage be misaligned so the lp seat does not seal properly. I could be mistaken, and would like to hear more about that conversion.
The older I get the better I was.

User avatar
antique diver
Master Diver
Posts: 1881
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:50 pm
First Name: Bill
Location: North-Central Texas

Re: Titan II and Trieste regulator questions?

Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:21 am

In the previous post I forgot to mention the first stage diaphragm. I recommend replacing it with a new more flexible one.

The original ones are sometimes very stiff with age, and could potentially cause similar problems to what you have found. I have even found some old ones that appear to cause a variation in intermediate pressure with temperature changes. Cold can stiffen them even more and can result in an increase in IP.
The older I get the better I was.

User avatar
luis
VDH Moderator
Posts: 1598
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 9:28 pm
First Name: Luis
Location: Maine

Re: Titan II and Trieste regulator questions?

Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:02 pm

I recommend you do a search for the Pegasus in this web site. You will find a lot of good information under that project name.

That was the original project were I designed a second stage to be used with the Voit Titan. Later on I modified that second stage into what eventually became the HPR. The Pegasus in some ways provided the original test prototypes for the HPR, but there are several difference.

The thread pitch for the Voit and US Divers are different. If you were able to thread an HPR into a Voit Titan, you have damaged the threads (probably on both mating parts).

Herman did most of the machining for this project and he may be able to fix the thread damage.


The US Divers (Conshelf type) first stage balancing chamber can be adapted for the Titan and other Voit regulators, but it does require some modifications. I wrote how to do it somewhere under one of the single hose discussions. I will try to find the thread later and post a link.
Luis

Buceador con escafandra autónoma clásica.

User avatar
Herman
VDH Moderator
Posts: 1227
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:45 pm
Location: Raleigh NC

Re: Titan II and Trieste regulator questions?

Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:00 pm

While the threads are the same diameter they are def a different pitch 24TPI vs 27 TPI. It will almost fit but not quite. In addition, the way the nozzles are secured is to totally different. To do the conversion you have to make an entirely new second stage fabricated (and no I don't/won't make them ) or find a Trieste second stage with the lever.....darn near impossible to do.
Herman

User avatar
simonbeans
VDH Moderator
Posts: 925
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:00 pm
First Name: Allan
Location: Rochester NY

Re: Titan II and Trieste regulator questions?

Wed Sep 02, 2015 5:17 pm

To be sure everyone is on the same page, the history of converting the Titan II to a Trieste (Pegasus) has a few turns that you don't have correct. A man from the Mid-West made up a copy of the Trieste 2nd stage. From this, Luis redesigned the stage and had a few made by Herman to convert the Titan II to the Pegasus. Rob had the perfect cans for the conversion, and thus he had Herman cut some cans to fit the Titan II (Pegasus) body.
This was a much better regulator than the Trieste as the Pegasus could use the larger and better geometry main diaphragm. I did a few labels for the Pegasuses (Pegasi??) that were made.
Check out my website: www.vintagescubastuff.com

User avatar
Bronze06
Master Diver
Posts: 663
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2014 5:33 am
First Name: Russell
Location: Tabuk, Saudi Arabia

Re: Titan II and Trieste regulator questions?

Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:56 am

antique diver wrote:Sounds like your poppet pin may be too long for use with the new AquaLung poppet (HP seat). I cut mine to the length suggested by Greg Barlow: 0.630 inches. He also suggests measuring the overall length of the poppet with pin inserted should fall between 0.772 to 0.780" for proper operation. If it is longer, the first stage diaphragm may push the poppet open at normal pressures. If it is too short you may not get enough opening of the poppet during use.

If you have already cut your pin to the proper length, the leak may be around the little 006 oring in your first stage balance chamber (referred to as a poppet retainer in some Voit diagrams), or the larger oring around the first stage housing. 70 durometer is normal. If you changed the small oring it could have been damaged wrestling it into the balance chamber.

About the HPR second stage... I was under the impression that there was a slight thread mismatch between the Aqualung and Voit threads.
If so, that could let the second stage be misaligned so the lp seat does not seal properly. I could be mistaken, and would like to hear more about that conversion.
Hey Antique D,

I had a NOS HP seat and the original pin length matches up exactly as the original. I have rebuilt a Trieste and did the pin length reduction with an new VDH seat in that reg in order to get the correct length and the Trieste works great. I ALWAYS replace the 1st stage diaphragm. I will re-do the o-ring in the balance chamber just to double tap that area. I might just end up having to purchase a new designed HP seat from Bryan and do the same thing I did to the Trieste.
"Where'd ya get that ol' thang, don't cha' know them thare things ill kill ya!"

Live From the Red Sea,

Russ

User avatar
Bronze06
Master Diver
Posts: 663
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2014 5:33 am
First Name: Russell
Location: Tabuk, Saudi Arabia

Re: Titan II and Trieste regulator questions?

Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:19 am

luis wrote:I recommend you do a search for the Pegasus in this web site. You will find a lot of good information under that project name.

That was the original project were I designed a second stage to be used with the Voit Titan. Later on I modified that second stage into what eventually became the HPR. The Pegasus in some ways provided the original test prototypes for the HPR, but there are several difference.

The thread pitch for the Voit and US Divers are different. If you were able to thread an HPR into a Voit Titan, you have damaged the threads (probably on both mating parts).

Herman did most of the machining for this project and he may be able to fix the thread damage.


The US Divers (Conshelf type) first stage balancing chamber can be adapted for the Titan and other Voit regulators, but it does require some modifications. I wrote how to do it somewhere under one of the single hose discussions. I will try to find the thread later and post a link.
Hey Luis,

I already assumed that the HPR might not pitch in right as I attempted to mate an HPR with my Trieste about 2 months ago. That said and as an engineer your aren't going to like this, I was willing to sacrifice an HPR body to the Voit Scuba Gods and using a lot of silicon grease, gently BRUT FORCED the HPR body into the Titan body. The endstate came out on my side this time. The interior pitch on the Titan body, due to its mass and possibly temper was able to retain its original pitch and the HPR body was "adjusted" to its new matrix by way of it not having the mass and possibly the temper of the main reg body. This was verified simply by re-inserting the original Titan "over-pressure" seat/valve casing back into the reg body. No change or binding was noticed. Thus, even though the HPR is now adjusted/re-pitched and only usable for either a Titan or Trieste, the endstate was achieved. The HPR body will fully seat into the main reg body and functionality is perfect. As said previously, my main issue is in the 1st stage and Antique D gave me some things to recheck. I'll let you know how this turns out. I will check out the "Pegasus Project" as well. Thanks for all the information guys.
As a side-bar, does anyone else notice that many of the projects and regs we get in to revolve around the myths of Ulysses, Jason or Perseus and Andromeda with regards to regulator names (Kraken, Pegasus, Titan, Poseidon, Calypso, Argonaut?????)

Thanks, Russ
"Where'd ya get that ol' thang, don't cha' know them thare things ill kill ya!"

Live From the Red Sea,

Russ

User avatar
Bronze06
Master Diver
Posts: 663
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2014 5:33 am
First Name: Russell
Location: Tabuk, Saudi Arabia

Re: Titan II and Trieste regulator questions?

Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:53 am

simonbeans wrote:To be sure everyone is on the same page, the history of converting the Titan II to a Trieste (Pegasus) has a few turns that you don't have correct. A man from the Mid-West made up a copy of the Trieste 2nd stage. From this, Luis redesigned the stage and had a few made by Herman to convert the Titan II to the Pegasus. Rob had the perfect cans for the conversion, and thus he had Herman cut some cans to fit the Titan II (Pegasus) body.
This was a much better regulator than the Trieste as the Pegasus could use the larger and better geometry main diaphragm. I did a few labels for the Pegasuses (Pegasi??) that were made.
Hey Alan and Everyone,

Great labels and products by the way. I just looked up the Pegasus project here on site. Wow, I guess I'm ten years behind you all. Man those regs looked great. After reading through that thread I well understand why Bryan is wary of new product lines WITHOUT getting enough legal advice and protection. I am in absolute agreement with his statement about legal leeches "looking for a meal ticket' That said, the project looked like fun. All the VDH people have put too much time, labor and money into this wonderful endeavor to have some lowlife (excuse my Army French) shitbirds and their lawyers steal everything away in the "new American way". Over here, in many respects it is still 1965 with regards to experimentation and diving in general. We call it the last frontier of "Wild West" diving. I will not call mine a Pegasus, it will just be a Green canned reg with one of Robs Spectre octopi on it. Besides, you all have to remember, I am catching up to the rest of you due to Army service at the time you guys started. It is strange, because I didn't know about Pegasus until today but I just kind of figured that if you can do a Trieste you would be able to do a Titan the same way with slight modifications. I guess I really have the Double Hose bug. If I lived in Florida, I would work for Bryan at minimum wage just to be around the new Mecca of Double Hose Regs. and to ogle all the stuff but my wife would get upset and demand that I stay in Texas.

Thanks Again Guys, Russ
"Where'd ya get that ol' thang, don't cha' know them thare things ill kill ya!"

Live From the Red Sea,

Russ

User avatar
Bryan
Plank Owner
Posts: 5234
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:40 am
First Name: Bryan
Location: Wesley Chapel Florida
Contact: Website

Re: Titan II and Trieste regulator questions?

Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:10 am

Bronze06 wrote: If I lived in Florida, I would work for Bryan at minimum wage just to be around the new Mecca of Double Hose Regs. and to ogle all the stuff but my wife would get upset and demand that I stay in Texas.

Thanks Again Guys, Russ
You are under the assumption that VDH could afford to pay someone in actual money... :D :D

We all appreciate you sharing your double hose diving with the folks where you are and you always share great pictures. There are so many things we as a group have tried and experimented with that it's easy to miss quite a lot.
Doing it right should include some common sense, not just blindly following specs and instructions. .Gary D, AWAP on SB

User avatar
luis
VDH Moderator
Posts: 1598
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 9:28 pm
First Name: Luis
Location: Maine

Re: Titan II and Trieste regulator questions?

Sun Sep 06, 2015 3:55 pm

Bronze06 wrote: That said and as an engineer your aren't going to like this, I was willing to sacrifice an HPR body to the Voit Scuba Gods and using a lot of silicon grease, gently BRUT FORCED the HPR body into the Titan body. The endstate came out on my side this time.

Thanks, Russ
The pressure thrust on this threads happen to be very small (because of the small area under pressure), so I am not concerned that you compromised the threads. :roll:

I hope no one try this with pressure fittings, especially with HP fittings.
Luis

Buceador con escafandra autónoma clásica.

User avatar
luis
VDH Moderator
Posts: 1598
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 9:28 pm
First Name: Luis
Location: Maine

Re: Titan II and Trieste regulator questions?

Sun Sep 06, 2015 3:56 pm

One more difference between the US Divers and Voit regulators it the location of the second stage.
The Voit Trieste (or the Pegasus) second stage is 0.3 inches closer to the center of the regulator (further from the horn).

Therefore, the HPR lever will not be touching at the center of the diaphragm. You probably did not notice and will not notice the difference, unless you try to fine tune your regulator like I do. The different is small enough that is hard to tell visually, but if the cracking effort is very low, it could have a slight free flow in some diving positions. Again, you may not ever notice it.

The other difference is that the distance from the second stage to the horn affect the venturi flow. I tuned the ration of the bleed air to venturi jet flow a bit different on the Pegasus than I do with the HPR. I actually tune my Argonaut (with the new plastic cans) different than regulators with the metal cans.

Again, you may not notice the difference unless you have two regulators side by side.

The venturi flow with the round plastic horn can actually be noticeably better than with the metal cans. That is part of the reason why I designed the plastic cans for the Kraken.
Luis

Buceador con escafandra autónoma clásica.

User avatar
Bronze06
Master Diver
Posts: 663
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2014 5:33 am
First Name: Russell
Location: Tabuk, Saudi Arabia

Re: Titan II and Trieste regulator questions?

Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:16 pm

:D Well I found out what the problem was. All I needed was a A113 o-ring for the HP nozzle body and viola she's a breathing like a champ. The 2nd stage body needs to be just about flush with the regulator body so as to get excellent adjustments and a good seal over the 2nd stage orifice. I am calling it the Voit Titan II "Spectre" FX ( a head nod to 007's arch enemies.) I Test dove it in the pool yesterday and WOW! I am waiting on some Voit colored hoses from Rob to come in before I call it mission complete.
Luis and Rob, I can see exactly why you guys like the FX style cans for the "Kraken" as well as Rob's FX's. Smooth breathing on a "Kraken level. The HPR is working well and if set in correctly you need but one support screw (from an DAAM) to secure it. IP is set at 125 and holds for 24 hours under pressure. This was fun.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
"Where'd ya get that ol' thang, don't cha' know them thare things ill kill ya!"

Live From the Red Sea,

Russ

User avatar
Creed
Master Diver
Posts: 406
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:10 pm
Location: San Ramon, CA
Contact: Website

Re: Titan II and Trieste regulator questions?

Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:54 pm

A man from the Mid-West made up a copy of the Trieste 2nd stage.
Sounds mysterious.
:)
You should also note that John Ratliff supplied the Trieste 2nd stage assembly that I used in the original design. Without his trust in mailing a rare piece of a Trieste to a stranger from the internet, the original assembly would not have happened.
"Haul the sheet in as we ride on the wind that our
forefathers harnessed before us
Hear the bells ring as the tide rigging sings.
It's a son of a gun of a chorus" - Jimmy Buffet

User avatar
Creed
Master Diver
Posts: 406
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:10 pm
Location: San Ramon, CA
Contact: Website

Re: Titan II and Trieste regulator questions?

Sun Feb 07, 2016 7:02 pm

Some visuals to go with this thread.

An original Voit Trieste Image
Image
Reproduction assembly
ImageImage
Luis' Pegasus assembly
Image
Pegasus assembly in Delrin (I think )Image
And, finally, the HPR
ImageImage
"Haul the sheet in as we ride on the wind that our
forefathers harnessed before us
Hear the bells ring as the tide rigging sings.
It's a son of a gun of a chorus" - Jimmy Buffet

Return to “Modern Era Double Hose Diving”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests