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Bronze06
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Regulator Condition Guidance

Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:08 am

I felt that we needed a grading scale for purchasing vintage regs, so I came up with this to help the new buyer or seller. It is what we all generally look at put into words. I have a nice PDF and Word version, but couldn't get it on the board.

Vintage Double Hose Condition Grading Guide

The following is a general guide for grading the physical condition of vintage double hose regulators. It should be used as a tool for the savvy regulator collector/rebuilder to establish the condition of the mechanical portions of a given regulator with regards to functionality as well as cosmetic appearance. It encompasses two areas of concern; 1. Main body of the regulator, both interior and exterior condition as well as functionality. 2. Hoses and mouthpiece (both in overall condition and function).
With the basic cost of rebuilding such regulators running around $150-$250 in 2016 dollars per regulator for items such as new hoses, mouthpieces, diaphragms, interior service kits, etc., the need for a more uniform grading standard is helpful when regarding the purchase of a vintage regulator for collector/seller pricing and rebuilding costs. The above dollar figure is an average and does not take into account additional costs such as re-chroming or specialty items for repair on rarer regulators. For the purpose of simplicity, the "Big Three" manufacturers US Divers, Voit and La Spirotenchnique are the primary manufacturers targeted for this guide. However, many of the points discussed can be used when evaluating other manufacturer's regulators and many respects can be applied to single hose regulators as well.

Terminology

Verdigris:The residue of oxidation of brass and other metal parts due to failure of either protective coatings or chemical reactions due to the effects of time, improper cleaning and storage. Verdigris will appear as a white, chalk-like residue sometimes with a greenish tinge. Bad cases of verdigris will tend to appear dark green, brown or even black depending on the material being oxidized. Think of it as Brass rust when referring to vintage regulators.

Dry Rot: Specifically, the oxidation and loss of polymer cohesion in either plastic, wood or rubber products. Evidenced in double hose regulators (specifically the rubber or plastic parts thereof) by non-elasticity (lack of flexibility sometimes referred to as taking a "Set"), flaking, cracking, disintegration or shattering of various components such as diaphragms, hoses, mouthpieces, retention bands, "duckbill" valves and low and high pressure seat surfaces. The main victims of Dry Rot are anything made of rubber when dealing with vintage regulators, though plastic bodied regulators can evince a form of Dry Rot (usually polymeric UV/Chlorine degradation of plastic components) at times. Remember "SET" or failure of rubber components to stay elastic and flexible is a sign that a loss of polymer cohesion has taken place in a given component and is indicative of the initial stages of Dry Rot.

Distortion: The physical deformation (warping) of either the metal, plastic or rubber parts of a regulator due to improper storage or careless use. Not to be confused with denting. Many regulators will appear fine in pictures online, but one needs to look closely at mating surfaces of regulator cans for uniform spacing and cohesion as well as yoke assemblies for stretched, bent or distorted tank attachment screws/keys or collars.

Dents: The deformation of the metal parts of a regulator due to improper storage or careless use causing a noticeable indentation or crush ridge on a given component. Many dents on metal bodied regulators can be repaired and made un-noticeable when the component is re-coated with either paint or chrome. Plastic body regulators will not dent but crack, due to plastics' non-malleable properties. This is why, though many plastic bodied regulators were made, few survive in great condition after 50+ years thus making them a coveted collector’s item.

Abrasions: Commonly referred to as scratches or gouges. Abrasions commonly evidence themselves on metal regulator bodies as friction/collision damage to metal exteriors such as chrome plating or paint. On plastic bodied regulators, they can become problematic for restoration and re-sale, as well as open paths for chemical deterioration or the regulator body. Hoses and other exterior parts are not immune to abrasion damage and should be checked frequently.

Cracks: The obvious separation of material caused by material stress or exterior trauma. Cracks should not be present in either metal or plastic can bodies. They can at times be repaired in areas of metal can bodies, but are lethal in plastic cans over time. Regulator bodies and mechanical parts can sometimes evince incipient cracks due to age and use and should be thoroughly checked for such by the restorer using a magnifying glass, if he or she plans to place the regulator back into full serviceability.

Function: Suffice it to say, function is the legitimate operational condition of a given regulator to deliver air to the diver as per engineered specifications. Many regulators on websites such as e-Bay are said to "work" or be "in working order" only to be described by the seller in his or her description as to its function with phrases such as" I am not an expert or a diver, but when I hooked the regulator up to a scuba tank, it appeared to work." or a variation of some such wording. As with ALL LIFE SUPPORT SYSTEMS, the buyer must either have the training to rebuild a regulator to specifications of functionality or said regulator has been rebuilt and tested by a trusted source OR a dive shop that has expertise in rebuilding such regulators such as VDH.com.

Patina: The gradient of color or finish on a given regulator caused by time and environmental conditions. Patina is not necessarily a bad thing IF the collector desires an original regulator that still retains functionality in all areas even though time has added color tones as well as exterior and interior metallic chemical reactions to take place. Many early regulators have a wonderful patina and function superbly. However, if there is noticeable patina on hoses, to wit; brown discoloration on black and yellow hoses and a darkening or blackening of green or gray hoses, the collector/restorer should replace said items if the regulator is to be placed back into service.


Condition Description Scale
10

Pristine Condition or New
All components are new/pristine and original to the regulator. No Cracks, Distortions, Abrasions, Dents, Dry Rot, Verdigris or Patina. Manufacturers’ labels clear and unblemished. Fully functional and ready to dive. Cosmetically perfect regardless of age.

Actions Needed for Restoration:

NONE

(Note: Most "NOS" New Old Stock regulators do not really qualify for this rating. Finding a VINTAGE original regulator in this condition is truly rare and in my opinion, physically impossible!) The only DH regulators on earth now that meet these criteria are the Argonaut "Kraken" from Vintage DH, new in the box, a NIB 21st century Aqualung “Mistral” or “Mentor”, in my opinion .


Condition Description Scale
9


Excellent Condition
Like new. Functions fully. No Cracks, Distortions, Dents, Dry Rot or Verdigris. Faint Patina possible, though esthetically pleasing to look at. All components original to the regulator, or have been replaced with new compatible components. Manufacturers’ labels clear and unblemished. Slight to non-existent Abrasions. Fully functional and ready to dive. With regards to vintage double hose regulators a 9 is the most realistic rating one can hope to attain.

Actions Needed for Restoration:

Perform Functions Checks for Safety If Diving (Attach to a full tank and breath from regulator to check air delivery function) Most "NOS" New Old Stock/Original regulators do not really qualify for this rating, but very rarely, some do. You can achieve this level through a good rebuild of a given regulator by following the steps below, depending of where that regulator is in this guides’ rating scheme.


Condition Description Scale
8


Used, Good Condition.
No Cracks, Distortions, Dents or Dry Rot. Some light Abrasions and light exterior Verdigris on metal or plastic parts, usually from long term storage. No verdigris on internal cavities or parts. Main diaphragm and one way valves, mouthpiece and hoses still supple with no set. Faint Patina on hoses and various parts. All original components present. Manufacturers’ labels clear and unblemished. Esthetically pleasing to look at. Functional.

Actions Needed for Restoration:

Perform annual service maintenance and checks. If the regulator is a 2 stage regulator (Balanced or Un-Balanced) check Intermediate pressure (IP).Replace HP seat, spring and HP diaphragm, model depending. Replace O-ring in 1st stage balance chamber and volcano orifice (if applicable), model depending. Replace 2nd stage soft seat, spring, body gasket, nozzle and spring pad gaskets. If a Single Stage regulator, replace, body gasket, HP seat, spring and actuator pin (if needed and actuator pin O-ring. Replace sintered filter, retaining clip and "duckbill" valve in all models. Disassemble, clean/ disinfect and inspect hoses, mouthpiece and one way valves. Use a 1/2 water and vinegar solution to remove verdigris from metal parts and rinse with water, and pat dry with clean cloth. Some "NOS" New Old Stock regulators do qualify for this rating. Perform Functions Check for Safety If Diving. For more details, see the VDH.com website and forum.


Condition Description Scale
7


Used, Fair Condition.
No Cracks, Distortions, Dents. Some Dry Rot on rubber components with light to medium Abrasions on metal or plastic parts, usually from long term storage. Light Verdigris on both interior and exterior of cans and yoke assembly. No verdigris on interior mechanical parts (body interior). Main diaphragm and one way valves, mouthpiece and hoses stiff or have taken a set. Patina on hoses and various parts. All components present. Manufacturers’ labels clear and unblemished. Still esthetically pleasing to look at. Semi- Functional.

Actions Needed for Restoration:

Treat as per condition 8 and perform the additional actions. Replace hoses, "wagon wheel" one way valve retainers, one way valves and mouthpiece as well as main diaphragm and hose clamps. Use vinegar solution in a half gallon container and immerse can and body mechanicals for 30 minutes to 1 hour checking frequently, to remove verdigris. Rinse with clean water and pat dry. If desired, restorer can dis-assemble and have metal parts re- chromed or painted professionally. This will raise the condition rating to a 9 for esthetics and functionality.


Condition Description Scale
6


Used, Medium Condition.

No Cracks, Distortions, Dents. Some Dry Rot on all rubber components with medium Abrasions on metal or plastic parts, usually from rough treatment. Medium Verdigris on both interior and exterior of cans and yoke assembly, with regulator showing 5% or less loss of protective coating (paint or chrome). Light verdigris on interior mechanical parts (body interior). Main diaphragm and one way valves, mouthpiece and hoses have taken a set and are stiff and un-flexible. Patina on hoses and various parts. All components present. Manufacturers’ labels lightly damaged or blemished. Heavy Patina. Not esthetically pleasing to look at. Non- Functional.

Actions Needed for Restoration:

Treat as per Conditions 7 and 8. Possible re-chroming or painting needed. Can clamps are great for the purist in mind to connect can housings. I prefer to use band clamps like the ones available at Vintage Double Hose for ease of maintenance.


Condition Description Scale
5


Used, Medium Poor Condition.
No Cracks. Slight Distortions of cans. Small repairable Dents. Dry Rot on all rubber components with medium Abrasions on metal or plastic parts, usually from rough treatment. Medium to Heavy Verdigris on both interior and exterior of cans and yoke assembly, with regulator showing 10% loss of protective coating (paint or chrome). Medium verdigris on interior mechanical parts (body interior). Main diaphragm and one way valves, mouthpiece and hoses stiff, broken, cracking and un-flexible. Patina on hoses and various parts. All components present. Manufacturers’ labels have light to medium damage and blemishes. Heavy Patina. Not esthetically pleasing to look at. Non- Functional.

Actions Needed for Restoration:

Treat as per Conditions 6, 7 and 8. Perform the following actions: Replace Label with correct period label and re-written serial number, if applicable. Attempt to gently re-shape can distortions by gentle use of a rubber mallet and wooden dowel. Small Dents can be taken out using a wooden dowel, a padded hard stand and a rubber mallet. For Medium to Heavy Verdigris I suggest the use of 1/2 water and vinegar solution of parts with a minimum immersion time of 1 hour between checks. Failing that, an Ultrasonic cleaner can be used, keeping a careful eye on parts and time as the machine does its work. Do Not Overkill the Parts with the Ultrasonic cleaner! Re-Chroming or painting a must for a Condition 5 regulators. Your Chrome guy can also take out Dents and Distortions. A Condition 5 can be brought back to a Condition 9 if you are willing to invest the time, labor and money into it.


Condition Description Scale
4


Used, Poor Condition.
No Cracks. Light to Medium Distortions of cans. Bent Yoke or tank attachment key. Small repairable Dents. Dry Rot on all rubber components with medium to heavy Abrasions on metal or plastic parts, usually from rough treatment. Medium to Heavy Verdigris on both interior and exterior of cans and yoke assembly, with regulator showing 20% or more loss of protective coating (paint or chrome). Heavy verdigris on interior mechanical parts (body interior). Main diaphragm and one way valves, mouthpiece and hoses stiff, broken, cracking and un-flexible or missing completely. Patina on hoses and various parts. Most components present. Manufacturers’ labels have medium to heavy damage and blemishes. Heavy Patina. Not esthetically pleasing to look at, at all. Non- Functional.

Actions Needed for Restoration:

Treat as per Conditions 5, 6, 7 and 8. Beware of dark brown Verdigris in the interior of the body of the regulator. This is especially true of Single Stage regulators like the US Divers DW "Mistral" If the corrosion is on the high pressure orifice, you might have to replace the regulator body due to material loss on the edge of the orifice not allowing for a good seat seal. So clean carefully, but not excessively. Here as, in Condition 5, a re-chroming or painting is necessary. If you have a plastic can housing such as a Voit 50 Fathom or US Divers Jet Air, Condition 4 is the lowest condition available for those types of regulators generally. However, new plastic cans, can be had at "The Scuba Museum" online.


Condition Description Scale
3


Used, Bad Condition.
Small Cracks in can housing or other components. Medium to Heavy Distortions of cans. Bent Yoke or bent or missing tank attachment key. Large Dents. Dry Rot on all remaining rubber components with heavy Abrasions on metal or plastic parts. Heavy Verdigris on both interior and exterior of cans and yoke assembly, with regulator showing 30% loss of protective coating (paint or chrome). Heavy verdigris on interior mechanical parts (body interior). Main diaphragm, mouthpiece and hoses stiff, broken, cracking, un-flexible or missing completely. Heavy Patina on hoses and various parts. Most components present. Manufacturers’ labels have heavy damage and blemishes. Heavy Patina. Not esthetically pleasing to look at, at all. Non- Functional.

Actions Needed for Restoration:

Treat as per Conditions 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8. Beware; major Can Cracks are a death knell for plastic regulator housings. They can be fixed in metal cans if the cracks are in a workable area such as the front or sides of a regulator can. Main regulator body (1st stage body) cracks however, are a death knell for any regulator. If a crack is found in the main body, the main body must be replaced.


Condition Description Scale
2


Used, Relic Condition.
Large Cracks in can housing or other components. Heavy Distortions of cans. Bent Yoke or bent or missing tank attachment key. Large Dents. Heavy Dry Rot in any remaining rubber components with heavy Abrasions on metal or plastic parts. Heavy Verdigris and detrimental corrosion on both interior and exterior of cans and yoke assembly, with regulator showing 40% or more loss of protective coating (paint or chrome). Heavy verdigris on interior mechanical parts (body interior). Main diaphragm, mouthpiece and hoses stiff, broken, cracking, un-flexible or missing completely. Heavy Patina on hoses (if any) and various parts. Many components missing. Manufacturers’ labels have heavy damage and blemishes or can be missing. Not esthetically pleasing to look at, at all. Non- Functional.

Actions Needed for Restoration:

Good for displays as a wall hanger or for salvageable parts. Not worth the effort to restore unless the regulator is of a very rare year or type. Even then, full restoration is generally beyond the abilities of the amateur enthusiast.


Condition Description Scale
1


Parts Bin Condition
This regulator is more of a skeleton of a regulator than a possible candidate for restoration. Many parts are missing and cans and body may have excessive damage. Don't even think it will have any functional metal or rubber parts. Its manufacturer's label is either damaged beyond recognition, or is missing completely. Some parts can be cannibalized to bring a better condition regulator back to life.

Actions Needed for Restoration:

Good for parts, maybe!?!

This guide serves as only a general guideline for regulators and does not take into account various subtle differences on any given regulator. For instance, the regulator itself can be an 8 but hoses can be a 4 or below. Common sense needs to be applied when grading regulators. For another example, a regulator may evince a 9 on the guide scale esthetically, but with regards to function, the regulator may only be a 6 or 7. As with anything in life, the buyer must BEWARE! Hopefully, this guide can take out some of those issues and questions a person might have when gaging the value of a regulator with regards to selling or purchasing such an item.
"Where'd ya get that ol' thang, don't cha' know them thare things ill kill ya!"

Live From the Red Sea,

Russ

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Bryan
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Re: Regulator Condition Guide

Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:37 pm

If you send me a pdf I can make it a linkable document. Thank you

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Doing it right should include some common sense, not just blindly following specs and instructions. .Gary D, AWAP on SB

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luis
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Re: Regulator Condition Guide

Sun Feb 28, 2016 5:25 pm

This is good stuff. You have obviously put some work into it. I like the way you organize the grading guide and I like that you put a directory of terms.

One suggestion I would like to make is to change some of the format, from continues paragraphs style to bullet formatting. It would make it easier to read and easier to find specific information.

I am referring about the “Condition” and “Actions Needed for Restoration” paragraphs. The content could be split into bullets rather than one continuous paragraph.
Luis

Buceador con escafandra autónoma clásica.

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georgeaustin
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Re: Regulator Condition Guide

Sun Feb 28, 2016 6:23 pm

Bookmarked - great post - thanks for taking the time to write this up

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Bronze06
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Re: Regulator Condition Guide

Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:51 am

Bryan wrote:If you send me a pdf I can make it a linkable document. Thank you

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk
Bryan, just sent it to your e-mail.
"Where'd ya get that ol' thang, don't cha' know them thare things ill kill ya!"

Live From the Red Sea,

Russ

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Bronze06
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Re: Regulator Condition Guide

Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:57 am

luis wrote:This is good stuff. You have obviously put some work into it. I like the way you organize the grading guide and I like that you put a directory of terms.

One suggestion I would like to make is to change some of the format, from continues paragraphs style to bullet formatting. It would make it easier to read and easier to find specific information.

I am referring about the “Condition” and “Actions Needed for Restoration” paragraphs. The content could be split into bullets rather than one continuous paragraph.

Luis,

I thought about bullets and such as we do in the military, but I though I'd keep is simple as a general guide. There is a book writing opportunity here for those inspired. Such a book could be used for pricing and up-graded bi-annually similar to the classic cars buyers' or gun guides. Pictures would be great in showing said conditions and pitfalls. This could be included into a general guide book for Vintage Diving. I used the style that is found in many collector's guide books and didn't go with the "by the numbers" graduation scales that some references do use.

Thanks
"Where'd ya get that ol' thang, don't cha' know them thare things ill kill ya!"

Live From the Red Sea,

Russ

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Bryan
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Re: Regulator Condition Guide

Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:20 pm

Link to the grading guide in PDF form. It is in the Manuals and Catalogs section in the Mis folder for future reference and linking. Thank you

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bitsh1e86mtvy ... e.pdf?dl=0
Doing it right should include some common sense, not just blindly following specs and instructions. .Gary D, AWAP on SB

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antique diver
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Re: Regulator Condition Guide

Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:19 am

Nice Job, Russ!
The older I get the better I was.

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USdiver
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Re: Regulator Condition Guide

Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:12 pm

Good work.

Just keep it to rating regulator condition, not vintage diver condition. :wink:
Too DAAM Many double hoses, It's not a hobby, it's an addiction.

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Bronze06
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Re: Regulator Condition Guide

Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:10 am

Thanks Folks,

I am going to get pictures of regs to demonstrate various plus's and minuses and add them in.
"Where'd ya get that ol' thang, don't cha' know them thare things ill kill ya!"

Live From the Red Sea,

Russ

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Bronze06
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Re: Regulator Condition Guidance

Sat Mar 05, 2016 11:09 am

Now Kiddies, would you pay $549.00 for this regulator? Using the guide in the VDH misc. section or above, I doubt it. Considering the amount of environmental damage, not to mention that the owner claims it was recently serviced again BUYER BEWARE! Just down stream from this one on e-Bay was a nice condition Jet Air for far less (approx. $345.00), but IMO still too much, but then again I am a tightwad.
F50-3.jpg

The above recent picture shows a plastic body Voit 50 Fathom that is far from pristine. Heavy patina and discoloration of all polymer components most likely due to Chlorine and UV overexposure. Metal body/screws appear fine, but if you look closely, you can see some Verdigris inside the Phillips head screws. Though you can't see it right off, the hose retaining bands are cracked and about to fail. Although the owner presents a so called service statement on his page, the picture of the document has no real service information on it and appears to be filled out by someone who is unfamiliar with service requirements and IMO is a Bogus document.

F50-1.jpg
The above is a classic front view of the reg body showing the typical damage that plastic bodied regs face over protracted periods of time. Abrasions, discolorations due to UV/Chlorine exposure and definite signs of deterioration of the hoses due to polymer cohesion chemical loss (Dry Rot)

F50-5.jpg
As you look closely at the picture above you will observe evidence inside and outside the hose corrugations of incipient Dry Rot. IMO the above regulator would rate a 4, which is the lowest attainable rating in the guide for a plastic bodied regulator. This is due to its over-all esthetical condition. Without a look inside, and judging from the outside the interior is probably a little dicey at worst with regards to Verdigris, though that might not be the case. If the reg has a new main diaphragm in it, I am a monkey's uncle. Buyer Beware! If you wanted to rebuild this reg back to a rating of 9, you would have to replace the can bodies, hoses, possibly the mouthpiece and definitely all diaphragms internal components such as HP seats, sintered filter, etc. . With its price at $549 at the outset, by the time you were done doing a proper rebuild, you would have shelled out an additional 300 (approx.) frogskins, making this reg a very expensive proposition. At best, this reg. should sell for around $150-$220 more for the internals than the exterior. A truly rebuilt and refurbished regulator such as this could sell for the price the owner above is asking for it, but no way in its present shape and cost of rebuild.
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"Where'd ya get that ol' thang, don't cha' know them thare things ill kill ya!"

Live From the Red Sea,

Russ

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Bryan
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Re: Regulator Condition Guidance

Sun Mar 06, 2016 2:48 pm

In the not so distant past the regulator above would have been a steal at $500.00 or even $800.00 simply because it is in original condition. We have all seen regulators in much worse non dive-able condition bring much more. The market to collectors is vastly different than the market to buyers who want to use them for diving. The market for double hose regulators fluctuates greatly depending on who wants what and how bad they want it. I am not a collector so to me the regulator above poses no interest. To certain collectors it COULD BE a crown jewel. This is why any published double hose price guide would need to be a continuous work in progress as it changes so rapidly.

With that said there are several regulators that were manufactured in such large quantities that a baseline price/value could be established. Even then you will have a few clowns crying in agony as if you had cut a SPACO in half each time a DA Aqua-Master is updated with modern advancements to be a easy breathing fun to dive with regulator. :roll:
Doing it right should include some common sense, not just blindly following specs and instructions. .Gary D, AWAP on SB

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Bronze06
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Re: Regulator Condition Guidance

Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:48 am

Bryan, I agree.

I look to regs for rebuilding and placing them back into operation and possibly selling as stated at the beginning of the guide. That said, I just bought that OP reg from Keith, knowing him as a trusted source as well as the fact we've done business in the past. To me, things such as an early Broxton, OP, or even a CG-45 are the gold standard, but I always have an eye for functionality as well as restoration costs. I know there are many out there that want an "in situ" reg that that will just collect dust and will never, ever be dove again, I run into this same mindset with weapons collecting. Purists will always come up with a reason not to refurbish for originalities' sake. That said, in another 50 years, if they don't refurbish a given item their overall values will go down due to degradation of various parts, unless they take extraordinary preservation precautions for the long term. I know I am preaching to the choir here. The guide doesn't have prices and is geared more to the person who wish to purchase a reg and get it operational as well as get an idea off what if would take to get it there. It is useful for adjusting value added costs for possible future functional resale as well. JMO

Thanks, Russ
"Where'd ya get that ol' thang, don't cha' know them thare things ill kill ya!"

Live From the Red Sea,

Russ

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