Is an h-valve vintage?

[veggiedog]

I have been acused of being a PADIphite, but in reality I'm just an evil tech-head all by myself No one to blame but me: certified NASDS and NAUI in the early 80s, solo diver with no buddies to blame.

I have arrived on a solution for my double hose system that I am quite excited about: I am switching out the j-valve on my steel 72 for an h-valve so that I can have a redundant regulator system to drive all of my modern gadgets (BC, backup regulator, SPG, you know, ultra-modern stuff) while diving with my mistral double hose. I will be using my bp/w setup and all of its geeky attachments (redundant stuff).

I already have an h-valve on an aluminum 80, and the modern regulator looks great (in a geeky-tech kinda way) next to the double hose. I had originally looked into a y-valve for my steel 72 (they look more "vintage" to me) but the spacing was too close for a modern regulator plus the double hose. Besides, the h-valve keeps the mistral centered and properly de-emphasizes the backup (modern, lower and off to the side of the mistral) system in a visual way.

I can already think of cool implications: being able to turn off the air to the mistral so that I can swim on my back on the surface, turning off the air to the mistral if I need to switch to the backup regulator (double hose freeflow is difficult to control with the mouthpiece out of your mouth).

Mostly just excited about having the choice to use my "modern" amenities. I'll provide photos of my first outing after the valve arrives.

I won't be suprised if my posting gets kicked off the "vintage diving forum" though.

[diverdown1955]

Veggiedog,
You won't be the only one laughed at.....I just ordered an H valve, plan to put it on a steel 72. I bought a Sea-Elite isolation double manifold and found the reg MR2 yoke would not fit the the fat terminal. My Dacor's fit fine, but I am bull headed and like the looks of the MR2 reg with the DA aqua-master. Anyway,doubles are getting to damn heavy for fun dives! The Y valve that I bought, sucks! So that's going back to e-bay shortly. I just wanted you to be reassured that your not going to be alone....let'em snicker...the only one's we have too satisfie is ourselves! I managed to go to Wazee in August and you can't fine a better class of divers to laugh at you.

Best regards,
diverdown1955
jerry moseman
Texas

[Bryan]

Your opinion is always welcome here.....Now here's mine on the subject.

It's kinda like putting ape hangar bars on a new HD softail and telling everyone your are Old School.....

[captain]

Bryan, you need a new section, vintage DIR For the true believers.

[veggiedog]

Hey dude, are you stalking me?

I also dive doubles with isolation manifold, lament their weight, considered buying a y-valve on ebay, am particular about aesthetics, just ordered an h-valve, and I have difficulty fitting some of my regulators to some of my posts. AND I LIVE IN TEXAS!!!

What are the chances of all that? Maybe Texas is bigger than I realized.

However, I only lament the double's weight above water (I love them underwater), I convinced myself from the ebay image of the y-valve that a mistral and a conshelf xiv wouldn't fit so I didn't get it, it is a healthways scubair 300 that will only fit my steel 72 and my pony bottles (only the ponies after I go to a DiveRite H-Valve on the 72 (which, btw, does fit my mistral)), my isolation manifold is a Thermo, and I've never been to Wisconsin.

Maybe your not stalking me.

Regarding Bryan's comment:
Excellent analogy. For me, it goes too far in categorizing life though. I own many old things, and I never have cared to keep them vintage. I have a 77 IHC Scout 2 with a diesel from a 1990 ford 1 ton pu, a 1969 sailboat with a computer, tv, ac, 5.1 surround sound, stuff you can't imagine... I like to mix new school with old school, and call it neither. I do appreciate simple diving though, but mostly because that is how I started (simple but with a STAB). Never because I want to say I dive old school, only because I want to taste old school for the memories. However, when I dive simple, I dive shallow (< 60'). In fact, I will be extending that realm by diving without a BC soon, but still shallow. I'm just interested in exploring that thrill as well.

My new h-valve system will allow me to take my mistral much further: with the ability to shut off a potential hp leak in a simple single stage regulator, I will be much less concerned about the depth I take the mistral. And I like the mistral not only because it is vintage, but also because it is an engineering piece of art by virtue of its simplicity. I am eager to see what it can do, and how it feels doing it. Additionally, I would be willing to buddy dive with my 12 year old son on such a system, I wouldn't be willing to on much less.

I do realize this is the "vintage diving forum" though, and I apologize for offending your senses. I hope you are as thick skinned as I am...

[captain]

Probably much less chance of the Mistral failing than all the other stuff. Cousteau used them below 300 feet.

[Bryan]

Yea we had a good time two years in a row at Wazee and Blue Springs watching all the "tech" guys bailing out with all their equipment failures....And the look on their faces when everyone was passing them at 190 with only a double hose and a back pack..

At 12 I was diving a Jet Air with a back pack and a cap tube depth gauge. It had a tire patch on the main diaphragm and it never failed me. I can't say the same for A Deathways Scuba Star, Dacor Olympic, ScubaPro Mark VII, Dacor Pacer, and most recently a Dacor Viper.

Excellent point Tom.......

[Nemrod]

I too like hearing all the ideas. I have looked at an H valve as well. Since I often dive deep and solo I like the redundancy it might afford but in the end I decided such dives were best accomplished with my Double 50s on Sherwood manifold running the Royal and an MR12 as back up. I can field a Vintage Tech rig but my vintage tech is still vintage. The Sherwood valve is probably early to mid 70s, the MR12 is early 70s, my dual bladder BC I use is also from early/mid 70s, the guages and instruments I use are all from the 60s or early 70s. I do use a modern Hammer Head BP and have for a long time used a basic DIR approach to position of D rings, hoses and instruments and such as that.
I probably would accuse you of being a PadIphile with that odd mixture of old and new and all that redundancy, heck vintage is all about simplicity so those of us (including me) who occasionally delve into Vintage Tech really are running at cross purposes. I have also come to the conclusion that the modern tech diver's quest for total redundancy is like the search for the JabberWockey, not worth the effort and basically futile. The modern equipment you are introducing into your dive system are the WEAK links--not the Mistral.
Good luck, post some pictures of the rig. Let me know if you find the JabberWockey!

James

[veggiedog]

Nemrod: thanks for attempting to clear up the vintage diving position.

Although redundancy is a double edged sword, to avoid it is similar to avoiding the use of logic because it can fail. Many redundant systems add a failure point and increase the chance of failure. Not all, but many (having an extra mask in my pocket will not increase my chance of failure, having an extra regulator will). However, and here is the important part, redundancy makes failures less critical Since I have no desire to say "Hey, look at me, I'm vintage" I have opted for the safety of redundancy, and I do not consider it basically futile any more than I consider restricting my beliefs to only those that are supported by logic as being futile.

The safety offered by redundancy is not a logical fallacy, offering up anecdotal evidence to support a position is. I grew up watching Jacque Cousteau too, but I don't look to his experience as viewed from TV shows as evidence of the benefits of vintage diving. I fully understand the reliability of simple systems, and I already know that introducing additional components also introduces additional failure points: I combat that edge of the sword with meticulous gear care. Failures are not acceptable, and, as anecdotal evidence, I have never had a gear failure for something I personally maintain other than "sortof" with my recent maiden double hose dive, although I don't consider that much of a failure given it was test dive and I was already suspicous of the failure point. As a quick point, keep in mind that my "modern" regulators are all US Divers Conshelf XIV's dating from 1977 to 1982 (I have eight of them), not that that matters much.

I realize that chasing redundancy can also become ridiculous and the additional safety is not offset by the additional risk of failure, but that is true of most practical things (i.e. there are practical limits). Never do those issues obviate the benefits of the method (redundancy), they just change the specifics of the implementation. But hey, asserting that an extra regulator is a futile attempt to increase safety seems to me to be a bit of a stretch.

Other than an extra regulator, I carry an extra lift device (seeme sausage), an extra knife in case I drop the one I'm using, an extra (small) mask for the same reason, an extra flashlight, an extra depth gauge, and all of that is packed away and is not interfering with my dive. When I dive solo, I carry along a redundant air supply, and I don't feel restricted in the slightest sense with its presence given it doesn't interfere with anything during my open water diving. Maybe if I was in a hurry I could see the benefits of leaving stuff behind, but I am not in a hurry and I purposefully configure my gear to avoid being in a hurry. Furthermore, I only add things that solve a potential problem, not just to have an extra.

I had no idea that the vintage crowd would also assemble into an "our way" or the "other way" mentality. Being anti-social and these forums being as close as I get to sharing with the public, I am still naive about "other divers". Should have guessed it though, why would it be any different?

[Bryan]

As I said earlier, you are welcome to post on my forum any time...... But you did come here posting the question.. Is my H valve vintage? Some of us gave you our opinion and I am sorry if your feelings got hurt

I had no idea that the vintage crowd would also assemble into an "our way" or the "other way" mentality.

I do realize this is the "vintage diving forum" though, and I apologize for offending your senses. I hope you are as thick skinned as I am...

You came to a site that specializes in a very specific style of diving. No one here said your style was right or wrong. Its just not our style of diving. I am not over in the " Tech" section of ScubaBoard trying to convince them that my style of diving is right or for a pat on the back validation of what I am doing.

I think packing around a redundant dive shop underwater is one of the silliest things I have ever heard of. Does not mean it is right or wrong it's just my opinion....

If you would like to discuss history, repair, ideas, knowledge, stories or post questions in regards to double hose diving you will find a huge volume of knowledge and help here. Please fell free to post away This group is the most helpful bunch of divers I have ever been associated with.
But I will not turn this forum into a bitch and moan session about DIR/TECH/Or any other flavor of the day style diving versus another style. Bandwidth is expensive so we will not be wasting ours on BS subjects like that.

[captain]

Veggiedog, I believe it is more of a person's mind set than a question of right or wrong. I began diving before all the modern gear was invented so I feel perfectly comfortable with a minimalist gear configuration. Even when I switched to the single hose regulator and BC I kept it to a minimum. Never have used an octo or pony with my modern gear. My main BC is an old Scuba Pro stablizing jacket of the smallest size I can get into. My only equiptment redundency is an extra cutting device and mostly when spearfishing the oil rigs. Gear configuration does not limit my depth, I have no concern using pure vintage to 150 feet. I dive only air and I set my limit at 150 because of breathing gas not gear configuration.
No criticism intended. All was said in jest. We are glad to have you on the forum.

[veggiedog]

My feelings were not hurt in the slightest bit: I am extremely thick skinned (solo should say it all).

I also started diving before redundant systems were in vogue, and I never encountered a failure underwater. I just understand the statistics involved in redundancy, and as an educated individual, I like using that knowledge to reduce my chances of catastrophic failure even if it does result in more non-catastrophic failures (which has not been true in my case). I also am aware of the fallacy of pushing that too far.

My major interest is in vintage components, not so much vintage diving (although I do have some interest in that too). I will keep in mind the mindset of the Vintage diver crowd, and I will attempt to consider that when posting.

I own a 91 sportster with a baker 6 speed (I do all my own work), and a bone stock 2000 Honda CBR929RR (along with several other bikes), and I can appreciate the advantages both styles have to offer (although I prefer rice burners). I encounter the same kind of bias sitting on both sides of that fence too: riders try to convince me that one way is right, when, as in all things, I see advantages in both styles, and I never say my system is right. However, when people say things like "harley's are better built than Japanese Sport Bikes", or "harley oil is better than normal oil", I just laugh a little inside and move on without comment (or, sometimes, I point out the silliness of those positions).

Thanks for worrying about my feelings.

[Nemrod]

Again, I agree with Bryan, I do not want to see our little internet group fraction up and I don't think we are about to either. I also like to hear other ideas and this website is great because if you have something like scooters or H valves that are not really vintage--or you think they may not be---then Bryan does have the General Discussion area also.
I have always considered the surface my reducndancy in open water diving, no deco. As I am now older and less fit than once I do now restrict my solo diving to around 80 feet max or less assuming but one air supply. If going deeper then I use the Double 50s which is speciffically what I got them for, Deep Solo. While they are not fully redundant because they are not isolated I feel they are sufficient for open water even solo. I would not use a non isolated rig for cave penetrations or any place or condition (deco diving) that prevents a straight return to the surface. Not to speak for Captain but I think we both still use Navy Tables and in the old days we never made safety stops for no deco diving and built our safety stop into the profile by by putting a 15 or 20 percent penelty into the dive.
But a direct answer to your original question, Is an H valve vintage and my answer is NO. To me diving vintage entails using the equipment and techniques and procedures and configurations that were used prior to 1975. This is just my opinion, others vary, it is not in Websters, we are an informal bunch, heck Luis had a console dangling behind him--tease--tease at Wazee.
Peaking around I see modern equipment infiltrating all of us, Rob has a computer, Bryan had a SeaDoo scooter, Captain and I did not have vintage wet suits, non of us wore tye die and bell bottoms between dives or drove to the dive site in a vintage VW bus, so---lol---non of us are perfect vintage divers.
Again,welcome to vintage diving, if we are able to do Florida again this spring I sure hope you come along.
James

[veggiedog]

Just to make the point clear, my original question was meant to be tongue in cheek. I do realize now that this is the wrong forum to make such jokes.

[simonbeans]

Your question was a good one. As Nemrod has said, we on this forum try to dive the way it used to be. In a way, we are reinactors of the diving world. When I went to Florida last year, I dove my Voit 50 Fathom with a 1955 Voit tank a repro harness, Voit Viking Fins, etc. To dive vintage means, to me, trying to relive the days of most of our youth and use the gear that was available. Now that doesn't mean to ignore the 30+ years of diving knowledge either. I use a vintage compass and depth gauge, but I also wear on my right wrist a Suunto Viper computer. No matter what you do, we believe in safety first. That is why we need people like Bryan who can tune our vintage regs to perform at a level expectant of the time. And, if possible, tweek them a little more. Still we stay within the time frame of "vintage". Broxton Chuck is called that because he likes the Broxton Regs. I like the early 1960's because that was when I started. Noone has a problem with your desires with vintage diving. I also use a redunancy pony bottle when I solo. And unfortunately, modern dive ops mostly require them. So again we have tried to accomodate this situation. The hookah port of the DA or Royals were never intended to be used as a BC inflator or alternate reg port. But we have, through Bryan's technology and talents, utililzed the hookah for that purpose. Broxton Chuck reproduction of the banjo has been a Godsend. In 1962, I had never heard of a banjo and just relied on the J valve doing its thing. But when the dive ops require us to "be back on board with 500 psi", the banjo is invaluable. No matter how you get involved in this vintage sport, this forum is the best. Where else can you get the help in acquiring the knowledge or materials for our sport? Welcome and I hope to meet you in FL this Spring.
Allan