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Discussion of diving methods and equipment available prior to the development of BCDs beyond the horse collar. This forum is dedicated to the pre-1970 diving.
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Ron
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What to do next?

Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:37 am

Hi all,

I thought I would pose this question:

What do we do now?

To elaborate, this little community has sort of had an ebb and flow. Divers are a cross section of socio-economic lines, and therefore dive groups are often contentious and pissy and prone to splintering. For a long time there was a certain tone here about vintage diving only essentially being for curmudgeons who were alive when it was newer. Obviously we cannot keep that mentality if we want enough people interested in this to warrant making and producing parts and equipment to do it. I'm pretty sure we can all agree on that.

We are rapidly approaching a dwindling interest in our niche of the sport and of our membership. I have no interest in making vintage scuba gear, arguing with retirement age men on the Internet, or adopting any sort of leadership ship role in this. I simply want to facilitate a discussion about this if we don't want it all to go away. Because if we do nothing, this will eventually go away. I'd guess within the next year personally. Vintage scuba gear is fairly dead on Ebay. The forum, which I know the metrics for, hit its high point a long time ago. New manufacture of vintage scuba diving equipment is at risk. We need people who are not over 65 to replace the people in our community who age out. It's simply a question of this part of our sport continuing to exist.

so again:

What do we do now? Discuss below please. What are we thinking about this? What are our ideas to keep this from going away?

Ron
The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed. -JYC

BigSwell
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Re: What to do next?

Mon Jan 02, 2023 7:34 pm

Ron, I have always looked for guidance from those who came before me and appreciate this forum beyond what words can state. This weekend I started rebuilding a bunch of older Conshelfs and SEAs I got off the fleabay from a guy in Florida. I guess you could say they are quasi vintage but without this forum, the section on manuals and advice from people like Luis I'm not sure I would care much to continue rebuilding. I have zero interest in joining the scubaboard, too many armchair know-it-all Nancys with diarrhea of the keyboard for my taste. I much prefer a place where you have people who have been there, done that, and have a closet full of t-shirts to prove it... Robs t-shirts are a bonus. Let's keep this group alive and diving!
-Kevin

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Ron
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Re: What to do next?

Tue Jan 03, 2023 1:10 am

Hi Kevin,

With my VDH admin hat off for a second, I personally feel the same way you do.

Now, presuming we do manage to keep the forum running, how do we continue to grow our community? How do we get more people under the age of 60 into vintage scuba diving?

Because self-flagellating with the whole "the good days of vintage diving are over" has become a tiresome song. Also with my VDH admin hat off, I'd like to be able to keep diving my vintage scuba gear when I'm old and that won't happen if only old people keep doing it. It's simply a question of logistics at that point.

Ron
The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed. -JYC

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ScubaLawyer
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Re: What to do next?

Tue Jan 03, 2023 3:06 am

Ok, here I go off on a disjointed rant again. :) Of the total number of certified scuba divers in the world, a very small subset are active divers where that is their primary hobby. Of those, most active divers I have spoken with don't give a rat's ass about diving history. Non-active and vacation divers even less. The number of divers wanting to learn diving history, equipment and techniques is a very tiny subset and I believe always will be.

Today, there is a very small group of those who learned to dive in the late 40's, 1950's and 1960's who learned on DH regs with no BC AND are interested in sharing their knowledge. Folks who got certified later but had these 1st generation divers as dive buddies saw and heard of their experiences and carried on their tales and techniques. We are now several generations beyond that and save for those of us old farts that have a true passion to preserve this history, there are not a lot of folks to pass on the knowledge. Books only go so far. Folks who are interested will hopefully join chat forums such this one and ask questions. However, that assumes people in the know are still around to accurately answer those questions, younger divers are willing to learn and mentor, and/or forums like this one are preserved and searchable since the most common questions have long ago been answered.

Where do we go from here? I used to go around to local dive clubs and put on a presentation about vintage diving equipment and techniques with show and tell. No one has asked me for a few years. When I make inquiries of local clubs and dive shops I am universally told that no one is interested. It is not a trip they can sell or equipment they can put in their inventory. I know that Jerry Lang puts on a Sea Hunt night at their local pool once a year. I've tried to do that in my area. Again, zero interest (and I'm in So. Cal. where there are a s**t-ton of divers).

I get lots of inquiries from divers when I'm standing on the beach channeling my inner Mike Nelson but that is as far as it goes.

So, how do we grow our subset of a niche community and bring in younger blood? As with any endeavor, there needs to be a foundation upon which we build. That foundation is the omnipresent pool of knowledge that is this type of forum. If this kind of forum is gone, there really isn't anywhere a person interested in vintage diving can begin short of finding a copy of Roberts' Basic Scuba and buying vintage gear on Ebay or through Rob at TSM. Last I heard Dan was trying to sell his reg repair business in Oregon.

There are some highly knowledgeable vintage divers on SB, but there are also a fair number of armchair wannabes that muck up the waters with disinformation, not by design, but through ignorance. Bottom line, keeping the VDH type of forum is probably the best chance of growing our little community.

I'm doing my best to try to keep such things as the Sea Hunt Forever show alive as well as talking people through reg rebuilds. I get several calls a month asking questions about how to rebuild an AM or a Mistral. (You know who you are that keeps giving out my phone number :) ). I'm happy to lend my time and walk people through the process. It also shows me that there is a growing subset of people interested in vintage diving even though they don't contribute to the collective knowledge base by participating in forums. For that reason I'm not sure we can use forum participation as an accurate barometer to gauge interest.

I really haven't seen many articles on vintage diving in the mainstream diving media. Maybe that is a place to educate and inform and try to get younger blood into the club. Dunno. My 2psi. End of rant. Mark
"The diver who collects specimens of underwater life has fun and becomes a keen underwater observer. .. seek slow-moving or attached organisms such as corals, starfish, or shelled creatures." (Golden Guide to Scuba Diving, 1968) :D

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Ron
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Re: What to do next?

Tue Jan 03, 2023 1:07 pm

Ok,

That’s another vote for keep the forum. Also, a vote for keeping live events in some form. Also, the first mention of needing someone to repair vintage regulators, which is a super valid point.

Even if we get 400 new people if nobody will repair and service vintage regulators then it’s going to be a tough sell.

All valid points Mark Esquire.
The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed. -JYC

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luis
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Re: What to do next?

Tue Jan 03, 2023 2:13 pm

There is plan to expand the vintage diving sub-forums in ScubaBoard. My understanding: it is going to happen, but it all takes a bit of time.

We are a bit isolated here. The exposure and traffic that ScubaBoard sees is many times the exposure we will ever get here.

Yes, you do get some strange opinions from time to time, but ScubaBoard is not a free for all. There are sections for any and all scuba (and many non-scuba) subjects and it is respected (and moderated) if some troll tries to criticize this old gear... etc. it is not allowed in the vintage section. A lot of things have changed in ScubaBoard in the last 10 years and they have very friendly sections to just about any Scuba specialty, but nothing is perfect.

There is no perfect solution, but there are options.


BTW, the VDH manufacturers section in ScubaBoard is planned to stay in place forever (that is a long time... :D ). It is acknowledged that even if VDH ceases to exist, the products that were manufactured by VDH are still around and they will need support.
Luis

Buceador con escafandra autónoma clásica.

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captain
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Re: What to do next?

Tue Jan 03, 2023 2:25 pm

I know what I will hear when I mention Facebook but I belong to several groups that cover 60's and 70's stock car drag racing, Older military vehicles like my 1967 M151 Jeep and several double hose diving groups. Maybe not ideal but better than losing the forum.
Captain

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luis
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Re: What to do next?

Tue Jan 03, 2023 2:34 pm

captain wrote:
Tue Jan 03, 2023 2:25 pm
I know what I will hear when I mention Facebook but I belong to several groups that cover 60's and 70's stock car drag racing, Older military vehicles like my 1967 M151 Jeep and several double hose diving groups. Maybe not ideal but better than losing the forum.

Yes, I have a love-hate relationship with Facebook... :lol:

I also belong to several DH or vintage dive forums in Facebook. The only issue is that I do have a hard time keeping track of them. And to me it seems hard to go back and find an old post from someone...


I do find Facebook as a good place to share my pictures. That is the only thing I like to post in there...
Luis

Buceador con escafandra autónoma clásica.

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simonbeans
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Re: What to do next?

Tue Jan 03, 2023 4:31 pm

Ron has indeed asked a good question-“What to do next?”

Before that can be answered, a few thoughts need to be expressed. These thoughts are basically mine, although they have been communicated from a few people.

I think scuba diving in general might be in decline. An assessment of this is seen in the number of people who go on dive trips but maybe that might not be a good judge of this observation as dive travel is relatively expensive and frequently younger divers are not able to afford the trips. Or, maybe younger people are into other adventures for excitement; mountain biking and snow boarding come to mind.

But, if scuba divers are still around, the thought of vintage double hose (VDH) diving doesn’t seem to interest most. Why is that? Obviously most dive stores and certification agencies do not push DH diving. Do DH companies advertise in the dive magazines? What DH companies?

Thus, the younger divers don’t even know much about double hose regs, etc. In fact, when and how did the Vintage Double Hose revival begin. Well, it was the “curmudgeons and retirement age” men that started the rebirth of VHD diving, produced the parts and resurrected vintage gear. But, as we have seen of late, everybody eventually dies. So do we speak negatively to age? I just thank the Lord for those old WWII vets, who are almost all gone. Or those seniors who dove DH regs when they were “new”.

I feel that the hey day of true VDH diving started to die when “modern DH diving” and gear appeared. I know personally the value of DH regs and equipment is now rock bottom-IF you can even sell it. But put a “modern” DH on eBay or wherever and you can get almost any amount. Been there, done that.

So, “what to do next?” My suggestions: new supply places for vintage gear, someway to get the word out, i.e.., advertise, U-tube type stuff, more organized events (and here is where the young guys can step up). I recall the curmudgeons did several Sand Dogs, Sea Hunt Shows, had write-ups in various magazines, and even was in an episode of Jonathan Bird’s Blue World.

Last, remember “you can take a horse to water but you can’t make him drink”. On my numerous dive trips I offer to let divers try my DH regs, but very few take my offer. Must be those young divers don’t want the “old stuff” but the latest and “greatest”.

Allan
A retired old man, a curmudgeon, and damn proud of it.
Check out my website: www.vintagescubastuff.com

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Britmarine
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Re: What to do next?

Wed Jan 04, 2023 9:35 am

I am aware that I am an outlier on this forum:
[*]I live in Europe, not in North America.
[*]After spending most summers in North America while working full-time in the UK, I seldom travel from my home town now I am retired.
[*]Although I qualified to do scuba in the 1960s, I have chosen to snorkel with vintage gear only over the years.
So why am I here?
[*]I am interested in diving equipment history and the best underwater gear historiography by far is published States-side. By way of example, there is no British counterpart of websites such as Skindivinghistory.com. The UK has no online forums dedicated to historical diving equipment research or practice.
[*]The VDH forum first came to my attention when I was pointed in the direction of Bryan's wonderful underwater gear catalogue database that he made available for all to browse and use.
[*]I enjoy reading what others write about their vintage scuba diving trips even when I am not in a position to contribute my own practical experience.
[*]I relish the opportunity to share what I know when somebody asks for advice about, or the chronology of, a basic diving artefact such as fins, masks, snorkels or suits, particularly if that item is of European origin and hence perhaps unfamiliar to a US readership.
Mixed feelings about Facebook
[*]I am a member of several Facebook groups because their membership is multinational. This helps me build my knowledge of diving equipment history in European countries other than the UK, e.g. France, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Italy and the countries of Eastern Europe.
[*]These forums occasionally provide access to rare European catalogues, which provide detailed information about gear chronology unavailable elsewhere.
[*]With notable exceptions, the responses to postings on Facebook are generally just "Wow", while images posted of vintage equipment divers seem to be rated more highly for their beauty contest standards rather than for their rarity or for how representative they are of a particular diving epoch.
What I wish for this forum:
[*]Wider membership from other continents, and if this proves impossible, a widening of the scope of the diving gear being discussed to what was produced in other continents.
[*]More discussion of vintage diving literature.
[*]The wherewithal to upload scans of catalogues to Bryan's database of such materials for others to enjoy.
[*]A mission to educate young people and others new to the sport to understand and appreciate the historical background and development of diving equipment from the mid twentieth century to our current decade in the new millennium. Those who ridicule old gear may learn to regret it when the modern gear they so admire comes to be replaced and ridiculed in its turn a few decades later.

My two (European) cents' worth.

BigSwell
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Re: What to do next?

Wed Jan 04, 2023 4:01 pm

I don't do F8Kbook or any other 'social media' but I thought I'd see what Aqualung was up to on their "facebook" page today. Well, the comments to their most recent post pretty much sums up the dive industry today I'd say. It's being run my non-divers, marketing and capital investment groups, and people who just don't get it. The comments are spot on at the link below I'd say:

https://www.facebook.com/aqualungdivers ... 078725948/

I'd also say the online sales push and the fact that manufactures STOPPED protecting brick and mortar stores from non approved sales helped seal the fate of the decline in scuba. Sport Chalet was once the largest dive retailer in the country (if not the world) by sales volume and students certified (NAUI) and you could go into any of their stores with a dive shop and know you would be talking with an instructor or DM for scuba advice. Then they folded, they couldn't compete with the internet. At one time, there where too many dive shops in San Diego, today, maybe 4 total. This is one reason I like servicing my own equipment, I know it's being done right and thorough. I've had to take regs back too many times to be re-rebuilt after an annual service in the past few years due to shitty workmanship and reusing of old parts, without this forum I wouldn't have clue what to do. I guess it's kind of like going into a HomeDepot today; all their employees are people who either only know how to stock selves (horribly) or direct people to the self-checkout stations. Nobody working there has a clue what the difference between a Phillips and slot screw is, and I'm being generous when I say that. Speaking of Phillips, anyone know where Tom Philips of Aqualung ended up? Talk about a great guy and knowledgeable! He was a part of the Sport Chalet Dive Club when they had that going, another thing that went the way of the Royal Aquamaster flush when the stores folded.

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Ron
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Re: What to do next?

Wed Jan 04, 2023 5:17 pm

Also, in a bit of an aside here:

I for one don't mind if this forum ends up on the other large scuba diving forum in the Internet. I also don't personally care if it ends up on Facebook. At that point I will gladly hang up my hat and spend the time I spend on this place billing people 300 bucks an hour. I truly do not mind if the site goes down and ends up on the other forum, but I will not participate in that. At this point in my life I only do things for one of two reasons: I'm passionate about it enough to do it for free, or it pays really well. The other forum is neither of those things for me.

I also must admit I think Allan made a lot of really good points in his post. I do think if you want younger people to want to do something you need to meet them where they are. As people age they lose their sense of novelty. For example everyone here talks about Facebook, because we are all fairly old. Nobody under 30 even uses Facebook. The people I work with use Discord or Twitch or at most Snapchat. My point here is you don't get a younger group into something by coming at it like old people. Like the reason LeisurePro (now Scuba.com) makes so much money is because they actually sell dive gear online versus in a shop because dive shops don't really make any money.

For example here people email me and complain about how this site looks on AOL. AOL stopped being useful in 1998. I mean that literally. Nobody I know in tech has used AOL in at least 25 years. When I tell people I have people email me about viewing a site on AOL they laugh and think I'm lying to them. My point here is that if you want people to do something that you are offering you have to do it in a way that meets them. You cannot expect them to meet you. That's not even logical.

The American Legion and VFW are learning that now. 60 year old men bitching about how no Iraq War vets like me will listen to them drink 20 cent beers while they bitch about Vietnam, talk about screwing hookers, and chain-smoke. Nobody my age wants that, and I'm 43. I am saying this because I genuinely think it's true, but the worst thing age brings is intellectual rigidity. I see it all the time. If you cannot adapt you will become unsuccessful. I guarantee the way Mark practices law isn't the way he did it 30 years ago. He had to adapt or die. He's still a lawyer because he's not practicing law like it's 1975. Because that would be idiotic.

Vintage diving is the same thing. Saying there was a golden era is something people do when they lack the ability to adapt something and foresee it dying. Like the reason nobody makes a carbureted car anymore is because compared to fuel injection...it sucks. Now our gear isn't really any worse than modern gear. In fact it uses the same parts. It's equally as fun if not more fun in our opinion. So there is room in there to bring it to a wider audience and we (including me) are not doing a great job at that. For example Sea Hunt is so old I've never even seen it on TV...not even on reruns. Every actor on that show is dead. Maybe that isn't something to promote to get someone who is 25 into vintage diving.

I've helped run a lot of businesses at this point in my life. The last one I was a VP at did over 7 million a year. And honestly...that's not very impressive. This is a solvable problem.

Also keep in mind that if the consensus of the group is the other forum or Facebook I'm happy to pull the plug on this after 14 years. I simply will not be joining you, which is fine and should not be a reason to consider another course of action. Really at this point I know how to do this stuff and I own enough parts to last me the next 50 years. Just throwing my 2 cents in since we are all having a legitimate discussion here.

Ron
The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed. -JYC

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Ron
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Re: What to do next?

Wed Jan 04, 2023 5:22 pm

BigSwell wrote:
Wed Jan 04, 2023 4:01 pm
I'd also say the online sales push and the fact that manufactures STOPPED protecting brick and mortar stores from non approved sales helped seal the fate of the decline in scuba. Sport Chalet was once the largest dive retailer in the country (if not the world) by sales volume and students certified (NAUI) and you could go into any of their stores with a dive shop and know you would be talking with an instructor or DM for scuba advice. Then they folded, they couldn't compete with the internet. At one time, there where too many dive shops in San Diego, today, maybe 4 total.
Brick and mortar scuba is dead. I've looked at several brick and mortar stores and none of them functionally make any money. I'm sure there are some larger ones like NESS, DRIS, Scuba.com, etc that are profitable. I think we all need to accept that retail scuba is dead.

Now, to your point, brick and mortar scuba is dead. That makes this prime time for people who want to service their own gear and free themselves from manufacturers. That's what vintage diving was all about. Really besides hydros and fills we can do everything ourselves. If you dive a MIstral with a steel 72 and a basket harness with a weight belt, hell the only thing to even repair is the regulator and the valve. So again, maybe in the honesty of your own words you are on to something. Perhaps that is something to explore and expand. I've rebuilt a Mistral on a dive boat before. Perhaps the answer lies in the truth of what you just stated.

I've often thought that if we sold vintage gear with some training and parts so you could just do it all yourself that would appeal to people. A bunch of my military friends hate taking their gear into dive shops with 18 year old stoners working on it.

Ron
The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed. -JYC

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Ron
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Re: What to do next?

Wed Jan 04, 2023 5:24 pm

Britmarine wrote:
Wed Jan 04, 2023 9:35 am
I am aware that I am an outlier on this forum:

SNIP

My two (European) cents' worth.

This entire post. This is what I'm talking about. This is a way to broaden our audience. This is a way to offer something that a modern scuba forum doesn't. This is why people sail on the Queen Mary 2 versus a giant NCL cruise ship. This.
The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed. -JYC

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Ron
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Re: What to do next?

Wed Jan 04, 2023 5:27 pm

luis wrote:
Tue Jan 03, 2023 2:34 pm
captain wrote:
Tue Jan 03, 2023 2:25 pm
I know what I will hear when I mention Facebook but I belong to several groups that cover 60's and 70's stock car drag racing, Older military vehicles like my 1967 M151 Jeep and several double hose diving groups. Maybe not ideal but better than losing the forum.

Yes, I have a love-hate relationship with Facebook... :lol:

I also belong to several DH or vintage dive forums in Facebook. The only issue is that I do have a hard time keeping track of them. And to me it seems hard to go back and find an old post from someone...


I do find Facebook as a good place to share my pictures. That is the only thing I like to post in there...
Facebook dynamically creates content. Therefore, if you want a record of things to use later, it's truly not very good for that. also it has no real file storage or content management capabilities for the user portion of it. It was built for transactional social interactions. It is a poor fit to run something long standing like a historical diving forum. Also, since it is stored on Meta servers in the cloud, it could be deleted in a pico-second by Facebook and we wouldn't have any of it ever again. We would also have no control over that.

Facebook is a great way for people over 40 to share photos and complain about stuff they will never change. It's not forum software. This is the same thing as being able to use the butt end of a screwdriver as a hammer. The screwdriver may pound a nail, but it does not become a hammer.

https://techcrunch.com/2022/08/11/teens ... .%E2%80%9D

It is historically unpopular among younger people. People at my job literally make fun of people who use it. Like it's a place for their grandfather to complain about politics.

I'm not badmouthing people who use it. I am simply stating facts. I don't myself have one, but my mom does and she loves it.
The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed. -JYC

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