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ScubaLawyer
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First Name: Mark
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Re: PADI or SSI

Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:55 pm

Ron wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:15 pm
Now, I am going to play devil's advocate here for a moment. I have met plenty of people who have been diving for 30 years and they are horrifyingly bad divers.
The late Ron Merker of Aquatic Center fame used to tell me all the time about the guy that would walk into his dive shop and say he'd been diving for 30 years and enjoyed it thoroughly both times. :D
"The diver who collects specimens of underwater life has fun and becomes a keen underwater observer. .. seek slow-moving or attached organisms such as corals, starfish, or shelled creatures." (Golden Guide to Scuba Diving, 1968) :D

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Ron
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Re: PADI or SSI

Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:19 pm

Bingo Mark. I could not have said it better.
The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed. -JYC

DerekRalston
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First Name: Derek
Location: Oroville CA

Re: PADI or SSI

Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:27 pm

Just because it's old, doesn't mean that it's gold, but I would put my money on an "old" diver over just about any of the divers coming out of the AOW card mill courses of today!

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Ron
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Re: PADI or SSI

Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:49 pm

To an extent, I agree. Some instructors are bad. I will say that people have been bitching about how diving used to be hard and now it is easy for longer than I've been alive. I literally just read a book about wreck diving from before I was born and in it the guy talks about how diving has gotten all watered down, courses are crap, etc. It was from 1978, 2 years before I was born.

Society kind of has these repeating themes if you study history.

Example:

1960s Soldier: "Black people are going to ruin the military."
1980s Soldier: "Women are going to ruin the military."
2010s Soldier: "Gay people are going to ruin the military."

Never, ever underestimate the potential for the average person to believe anything that they hear with no factual evidence.

I bet in 1954, someone was bitching about how wetsuits were going to ruin diving while they froze their butts off in wool underwear. People need that in their lives.
The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed. -JYC

DerekRalston
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Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:26 pm
First Name: Derek
Location: Oroville CA

Re: PADI or SSI

Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:08 pm

I don't think that it is the fault of instructors. It is the fault of an industry that has watered down course content to the point of being laughable, when compared to what it used to be. In less than 2 weeks you can hold a card that calls you an "advanced" open water diver. The title of the certification no longer matches the actual product of the course. The instructors simply teach the curriculum given to them by big box SCUBA organizations who make their money by selling more and more classes that mean nothing in the real world.

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Ron
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Re: PADI or SSI

Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:38 pm

I'm only trying to be factual here, but what you are saying is not factually accurate in all cases. I'm a TDI/SDI instructor, and I can (and do) teach however I want. There is no bare minimum. I make people do swim tests in their drysuits with 25 lbs on them to make them neutral, I make people drownproof or tread water, and the whole 9 yards. There are like 10 scuba agencies, and you are taking every single one of them and speaking about them like a unitary object, which simply just isn't accurate. It's like me saying every person from California is a liberal left wing nut job. It isn't even remotely true. I'm lumping people from LA with people from Eureka. I personally know people from California who are gun nuts, and incredibly right wing.

For example, in SDI as an instructor I can fail you for any reason I see fit. It's literally up to me, and nobody else. It's actually why I crossed over to become an SDI/TDI instructor besides the fact that I wanted to be able to teach solo, intro to tech, and advanced nitrox/deco procedures (still working on teaching deco procedures, full disclosure.)

Also, if you want an SDI advanced card, then you need to have 25 dives to get it. Again, what you said is just not factual. Here is a link for you:

https://www.tdisdi.com/sdi/get-certifie ... t-program/

I'm not trying to be argumentative or make you feel dumb. I'm simply telling you, without malice, that you are not correct.

This is verbatim from the SDI standards and procedures manual:

"The SDI Professional will not encourage or recruit other individuals to dive recreational if unqualified. "

Here is another excerpt:

"We believe an individual should not be qualified as a SDI Diver unless those empowered to qualify the person would allow them to buddy or teach their loved ones recreational diving."

I can fail a student for either one of those reasons, even if they otherwise pass the course.

My point is, and I mean this the polite way, that I ran my mouth a lot before I became an instructor. Being one is a whole different ball game. I've actually rescued people. I've actually had people bolt on me, or pull me to the surface, or freak out at 100 feet. It's easy to bad mouth diving. If you think that the dive industry sucks, then spend 3,000 dollars of your own money, become an instructor, and make it better. I say that sincerely. I thought the same thing years ago, so I became an instructor. Now, I make good divers. I do a job that is largely financially a loss, because I like it. I could just work on webpages, not teach diving at all, and I'd probably make 15-20 grand more a year. There are lots of good people out there. Hell, I'm not even a PADI instructor anymore and the guys at PADI HQ were, in my experience, all really nice folks.

You know why an open water scuba class is 4-8 days? Because that is what the market demands. I've offered an 8 week scuba class before. It had all the hazing in it, push-ups, 5 mile runs every morning, flutter kicks for days, the whole 9. It is every bit the kind of suck that we had in the military, complete with tiny shorts and hats with velcro sewn on the front of them. Not a single person ever took it. With Tim Ewing's help, I got certified to teach vintage equipment diving. I put a ton of my own money into it. I have 4 complete sets of vintage gear in my garage for certifying people as real deal PADI Vintage Equipment Divers. 4 people have ever taken that class, and all 4 of them are members of VDH.

Diving is safer than it ever has been. I can prove that, with facts. Go here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK424397/

In 2015 there were 54 deaths from diving, in both the US and Canada. 54. That's out of 3,000,000 people diving. That source is peer reviewed.

Go here:

http://pubmedcentralcanada.ca/pmcc/arti ... 4-0033.pdf

There were 86 in the United States alone in 1966. That's out of 1,000,000 divers. That source is peer reviewed too.

Not all scuba agencies have lax standards. Not all AOW divers have 9 dives. Diving is safer than it ever has been. I know tone is hard to detect, but I'm not grumpy. Training is not as bad as you think it is, or it would be borne out by actual facts. I'm just trying to explain to you what the objective reality of this is.
The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed. -JYC

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