User avatar
Bryan
Plank Owner
Posts: 5279
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:40 am
First Name: Bryan
Location: Wesley Chapel Florida
Contact: Website

Re: Saltwater Aspiration Syndrome

Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:57 pm

slonda828 wrote:That's awesome man, thanks for sharing!

Does anyone else have any crazy stories?
Sure....Just tell me the one you want to hear the end of...

1. This one time my friend "borrowed" a school bus and....
2. This one time I was setting on my bike outside a home for wayward girls in San Diego and....
3. This one time my friend Beaver and I decided to buy beer with the money we should have used to buy oil for the car and......
4. This one time we decided to experiment with jellied fuels and the reaction of the police/fire department and....
5. This one time I was on a bender with some of the guys from the band Jackyl and....
6. This one time my neighbor and I set my other neighbors yard on fire on purpose and ...
7 This one time I took my girlfriend to my house but forgot that other girlfriend was supposed to be at my house later and....
8. This one time I did some great photos of a nice girl and vintage scuba gear but my friend Joe Strickland said this was a family site and....
9. This one time my dive buddy wanted to touch the hypnotized shark but I wanted to see what would happen if I tried to wake up the shark when he touched it and......
10. This one time I was riding my bike with a pocket full of roman candles just minding my own business and.....
Doing it right should include some common sense, not just blindly following specs and instructions. .Gary D, AWAP on SB

User avatar
Ron
Site Admin
Posts: 1748
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:51 pm
First Name: Ron
Location: Puget Sound, Washington
Contact: Website

Re: Saltwater Aspiration Syndrome

Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:56 pm

I guess I should have specified "near miss diving" stories :lol:
The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed. -JYC

ehexdall

Re: Saltwater Aspiration Syndrome

Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:35 pm

It sounds more like you had a case of immersion pulmonary edema vice aspiration syndrome. Unless there's something seriously wrong with your gag reflex or you're in the process of drowning, you'd be hard put to actually aspirate water into your lungs, especially enough to result in pulmonary edema. Immersion pulmonary edema can happen whether you're SCUBA diving or just swimming and can be quite serious. You'd be well advised to visit a board certified diving physician and get checked out. If it turns out you did have IPE, we're doing a study here at Duke and would love to talk to you.

User avatar
kgehring
Master Diver
Posts: 563
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:44 pm
Location: Indianapolis
Contact: Website

Re: Saltwater Aspiration Syndrome

Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:49 pm

That is interesting. Ron could be a case study.
http://www.scubamuseum.com
Over 400 vintage regulators in my collection

User avatar
Robohips77
Master Diver
Posts: 805
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:26 pm
Location: Southwest in the Buckeye State

Re: Saltwater Aspiration Syndrome

Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:55 pm

Question is ....Is Ron on the way to the Dr.?
:shock:
First dives? 1967 and I never lost the fever.

User avatar
antique diver
Master Diver
Posts: 2210
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:50 pm
First Name: Bill
Location: North-Central Texas

Re: Saltwater Aspiration Syndrome

Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:55 pm

Robohips77 wrote:Question is ....Is Ron on the way to the Dr.?
:shock:
I get the feeling that he might think a shot of whiskey will fix most anything. I have been testing that theory, but the results are inconclusive at this time. :?
The research goes on.
The older I get the better I was.

User avatar
Ron
Site Admin
Posts: 1748
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:51 pm
First Name: Ron
Location: Puget Sound, Washington
Contact: Website

Re: Saltwater Aspiration Syndrome

Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:50 am

It is possible. I have read DAN's article on IPE, linked below, as well as a few others.

http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/medic ... ticleid=82

I will start by mentioning that I have none of the common cardiogenic risk factors listed for IPE. I'm 30, I sprint at a sub 5 minute mile pace, my blood pressure is normal, I do not smoke, and I am in exceptional cardiovascular health with a low body fat percentage. I also completed a pulmonary function test last month. It would have to have been a transient variable that induce IPE in me, as I have never experienced it before. I would be willing to talk to a physician at Duke or DAN via phone or email, and I would also participate in any of the famous underwater exercise bike tests too, provided that I could do it on a weekend. If Duke wants DNA or blood to examine it for whether I have any sort of predisposition to IPE that I could have inherited genetically, then they are welcome to it provided they pay for it or do it on site.

One thing of note is that I did swim for a bit before I went diving, and my heart rate was slightly elevated. The water was pretty cold as well, at about 69 degrees. I was wearing a 7mm wetsuit. That is at least anecdotal evidence of it being IPE, but it sounds like the majority of research is limited so I am not going to get too wound up about it. I know that IPE has presented in combat swimmers in cold water according to the Rubicon Foundation as well. Their abstract is posted here:

http://archive.rubicon-foundation.org/d ... tem+record

I have made about ten dives since the one in which I exhibited symptoms of pulmonary edema with no return of signs or symptoms. Interestingly, if there is a correlation between IPE and exercise, then maybe it is dependent somehow on an additional factor. I swam for a good hour today before diving, and I then did a 53 minute dive. The water was 83 degrees and everything went great. I was using similar equipment to what I was using when the edema happened. The only other appreciable difference to my knowledge is that the dives in which I experienced edema were fresh water, and all of my dives since then have been salt water. Also, the last thing that may be relevant is that I recall drinking a very large energy drink before my dive in which I experienced pulmonary edema. I know caffeine causes vasoconstriction, as does immersion in cold water and exercise. Temporary increases in blood pressure could lead to increased pulmonary hydrostatic pressures, which have been known to cause IPE in combat swimmers. Plus, I have never met a military guy who does not drink a lot of caffeine, even when cold and exercising, so that could be something common to combat swimmers in particular. That could be why most younger guys who present with IPE typically have normal blood pressures, as the effects of caffeine on blood pressure are transient. Maybe the temporary vasoconstriction from caffeine coupled with that of immersion in cold water is what does it. I can tell you that I have not drank an energy drink that size (320 mg of caffeine, which is quite a large amount) and gone diving in water that cold simultaneously to my recollection before. As a matter of fact, when I boat dive I do not drink caffeine at all to help avoid potential seasickness. I also drank a large gatorade before swimming, as I wanted to make sure I was hydrated. I know that temporary overhydration can cause capillary seepage due to increased volume if the kidneys have not had time to remove the extra fluids, so that may have contributed as well. As an aside, this sounds strikingly similar to high altitude pulmonary edema with the exception of the increased partial pressures in lieu of the decreased ones experienced at altitudes. Just a few thoughts.

I look forward to hearing from you, and I appreciate the information and your help.
The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed. -JYC

ehexdall

Re: Saltwater Aspiration Syndrome

Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:06 am

There was a NAVSEA-funded study completed at Duke in 2008 that addressed the cooling factor. I'll use Rubicon again here:
http://archive.rubicon-foundation.org/d ... 56789/7917
Cardiogenic factors come into play with immersion as you observed, but those with CHF and such are already at increased risk of pulmonary edema and the immersion just tips the scale a bit when the fluids shift. As you also pointed out, it's been documented in physically fit people like yourself with no cardiac risk factors at all, and that's who we're especially interested in. Can you email me your contact info? One of our attending MDs may be interested in speaking with you. My email: [email protected].
Thanks much!

User avatar
Greg Barlow
VDH Moderator
Posts: 525
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:26 pm
First Name: Greg
Location: SW Ohio

Re: Saltwater Aspiration Syndrome

Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:53 am

About four or five years ago, Rob S. and I were doing some fresh water dives with our USD Mistral regs. My reg had a factory diaphragm installed, as it was at a time prior to the silicone reproductions becoming available.

About half way into the planned dive, the reg began to breathe a bit wet. No doubt due to the factory diaphragm not sealing properly due to the outer edge having a small "suspect" area. I began coughing rather violently into the reg, and felt as though I was experiencing some bronchospasms. After having had 5 or 6 serious bouts of anaphylaxis in my life, I certainly knew that feeling. I immediately stopped and held onto the rock wall of the quarry. I had some difficulty getting adequate inhalations and began to feel a little light headed. I concentrated on taking slow, somewhat shallow breaths until I felt somewhat better. At that point, I made a slow ascent to the surface.

The coughing episode began again at the surface. Sensing that the situation was becoming more serious, I spat some of the sputum into my hand to check its appearance. Sure enough, it was blood tinged and a bit frothy.

At that point, Rob and I swam slowly back to the entrance point. I rested, drank some water, and called it a day. That evening I pulled the cans apart in a controlled manner and found that the "suspect" area of the diaphragm had a visible crease in it. That one went into the garbage can...

I had a slight cough for a day or so, but no lasting effects. Two days later, I went for a long run and had no difficulty breathing.

That experience, along with the loss of a weight belt while on a deco dive, were the closest times I've come to having a very serious diving accident.

Still, I've had a lot more bad experiences on motorcycles.

The episode did teach me one important thing. Making long, slow inhalations is beneficial in more ways that one. Had I made a quick inhalation, I very well may have drawn the water deeper into my pulmonary system.

Greg
Greg Barlow
PADI Assistant Instructor
TDI Adv. EAN
TDI Decompression Procedures
IANTD Full Cave
NSS/CDS Full Cave

User avatar
Ron
Site Admin
Posts: 1748
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:51 pm
First Name: Ron
Location: Puget Sound, Washington
Contact: Website

Re: Saltwater Aspiration Syndrome

Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:49 pm

Greg,

That sounds very similar to my situation. There is always going to be some water exchange via the duckbill, depending on body position. What I should have done before I went upside down was clear the broxton, but instead I just flipped over. I took a fairly large breath, and coughed a whole lot. Afterward I also exhibited blood tinged sputum. Was the water that you were in cold? I think that cold water aggravates it. The rubicon study above seems to link cold water and increased vascular pressures. I was fine 2 hours later.

Eric,

I sent you my contact information, feel free to forward it to the staff at Duke, and let me know if they want me to ride the underwater bicycle.
The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed. -JYC

User avatar
Bryan
Plank Owner
Posts: 5279
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:40 am
First Name: Bryan
Location: Wesley Chapel Florida
Contact: Website

Re: Saltwater Aspiration Syndrome

Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:20 pm

On a serious note for once......A couple of years ago at Paradise Springs I did the same thing on the very 1st dive I did with a new AquaLung Mistral. I was flopping all around trying to flood it and eventually got water in those HUGE pipes by shaking my head and then rolling upside down....I sucked in some water and tried stopped mid inhalation but too late and the coughing started.....I coughed till saw stars and was getting disoriented...While this was happening I was slowly surfacing going along the big rope that goes through the rock. By the time I got to the dive platform at 10' my throat was BURNING and felt raw. Mask had some bloody nose oysters in it and I spat up some bubbly blood looking spit....I wrote it off from coughing too much and tore up my sinuses and throat. I never ascended too quickly nor held my breath and was only down about 20 minutes. I felt fine after I sat down and had some water. This was during Sand Dog so I went back to diving later in the day and all the next day with no other problems.
Water was 68-72 degrees. I was wearing a shorty but don't remember being cold.
Doing it right should include some common sense, not just blindly following specs and instructions. .Gary D, AWAP on SB

User avatar
Greg Barlow
VDH Moderator
Posts: 525
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:26 pm
First Name: Greg
Location: SW Ohio

Re: Saltwater Aspiration Syndrome

Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:57 pm

The water that I was diving in was in the mid 60's or slightly warmer. It sounds to me like the three of us had almost identical reactions. Makes you think a little bit about what it would be like to drown...

Greg
Greg Barlow
PADI Assistant Instructor
TDI Adv. EAN
TDI Decompression Procedures
IANTD Full Cave
NSS/CDS Full Cave

User avatar
Ron
Site Admin
Posts: 1748
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:51 pm
First Name: Ron
Location: Puget Sound, Washington
Contact: Website

Re: Saltwater Aspiration Syndrome

Sat Jul 10, 2010 2:26 pm

I think that I am going to pay more attention to my breathing pattern underwater when exerting myself. I definitely did on my last dive yesterday, and any time that I thought I might need to draw a huge breath after exerting myself in the surf, I used my tongue as a splash guard like when snorkeling. It is interesting that this is more common than I originally thought though. Having 3 people who have experienced symptoms out of a relatively small sample is significant.
The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed. -JYC

ehexdall

Re: Saltwater Aspiration Syndrome

Sat Jul 10, 2010 5:38 pm

Interesting stuff, guys. I wonder if the folks who were coughing may have had a bit of sinus squeeze going on as well or perhaps unknowingly bit a tongue or cheek. It's pretty hard to generate blood from the pulmonary system from coughing - I've never experienced a coughing spell underwater but I've suctioned a lot of intubated/ trached ventilator patients with terrible lungs (which causes a coughing fit that's a sight to behold) and I've never seen blood unless I irritated the carina. Bloody sputum, i.e. spit with some bubbles and a little blood, is different from the classic "pink frothy sputum" of pulmonary edema. That looks like beer foam that's tinged pink.

User avatar
Greg Barlow
VDH Moderator
Posts: 525
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:26 pm
First Name: Greg
Location: SW Ohio

Re: Saltwater Aspiration Syndrome

Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:07 pm

ehexdall wrote:Interesting stuff, guys. I wonder if the folks who were coughing may have had a bit of sinus squeeze going on as well or perhaps unknowingly bit a tongue or cheek. It's pretty hard to generate blood from the pulmonary system from coughing - I've never experienced a coughing spell underwater but I've suctioned a lot of intubated/ trached ventilator patients with terrible lungs (which causes a coughing fit that's a sight to behold) and I've never seen blood unless I irritated the carina. Bloody sputum, i.e. spit with some bubbles and a little blood, is different from the classic "pink frothy sputum" of pulmonary edema. That looks like beer foam that's tinged pink.
I worked as an ER tech back in the late 70's, and treated a number of patients who had been intubated. No, what I experienced was bloody sputum that had a few bubbles. It was not frothy at all. My guess is that I had irritated my trachea, and possibly the uppermost section of the bronchi, from the inhaled water. The sputum was not pinkish and frothy as would be seen from any form of pulmonary edema.

Still...Not a good experience, especially while submerged.

Greg
Greg Barlow
PADI Assistant Instructor
TDI Adv. EAN
TDI Decompression Procedures
IANTD Full Cave
NSS/CDS Full Cave

Return to “General Discussions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 114 guests